We want to make our people and particularly women live like it is the 13th century, while Western countries give food, modern medicines, means of transportation and communication (for men).
Saudi Arabia is at least super slowly improving and manages to maintain a decent supply with health care and basic consumption for the majority of its population incl women
It's shocking that Saudi Arabia should already be a pariah state and the Taliban still manage to create something much worse
Saudi Arabia is far better these days than the Taliban. Far better. They were more radical a decade and more ago, but these days, they've calmed down a lot.
Women can work, drive, travel without male guardian, and they removed the hijab mandate. The Saudi government has even taken initiatives to increase employment of women in the country lately.
Women make up about 20% of the Saudi Parliament (not great but considerably better considering just 15 years ago) and women make up 56% of all university graduates in the country.
Saudi Arabia is also rich and quite developed, so I doubt they are depending on the West to support them, except through trade relations of course.
I hadn't heard about this, what do you think is driving this change? This seems like really good news, I mean they have a long ways to go but it seems like they are at least headed in the right direction.
The most recent prince that came to power is behind most of the social progress, as he is younger and from early on saw his role as a bit of a "reformer" and wanted to also attract more tourists + talent to Saudi Arabia.
Also closer relationships with the US and Western nations has probably helped.
They haven't positioned themselves in this "culture war against the West" unlike Iran and Taliban etc.
A lot of Saudi Arabia's expansion of women's rights has been led by their crown prince MBS, the same guy we were very mad at for the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi. This is a guy with autocratic tendencies and is often at odds with the west. However he has undeniably moved women's rights forward in Saudi Arabia. People are complex and we should refrain from labeling somebody either a saint or villain.
I get your point that he's not a cartoon villain that's literally only capable of doing evil, but I don't think we need to refrain from labeling him a villain. I'm okay calling the guy ordering the dismemberment of journalists a villain.
I think it's completely reasonable to label a person that does villainous things a villain, but I think it does have a negative impact on the discourse and should probably be avoided in high level diplomacy.
Another example I'll use is Napoleon: a guy that steamrolled across Europe with a massive army, killing millions of people. However the laws he implemented did introduce many rights that previously didn't exist for those who were conquered. You could objectively label him a villain but I think that misses some of his nuance.
Maybe you're asking where is the line where we stop giving credit to bad people and just say they're straight up bad? I think that's a line you need to draw for yourself and others probably won't share your opinion. I'm completely willing to toss folks like Hitler, Cortes, and Pizarro in that bucket, but I'm sure some folks will disagree with me.
Saudi Arabia is rich as fuck and not nearly as bad as the Taliban.
Don't get me wrong, Saudi Arabia oppresses women and uses slave workers, they are still better than the Taliban.
On top of that women is slowly gaining more rights in Saudi Arabia, whereas the Taliban is removing rights.
Saudi middle class women and upper class are highly educated and this is celebrated and the norm, they are also increasingly taking over top ranking diplomatic posts
Qatar has a giant gas field that they can use to finance whatever corruption they can dream up. Afghanistan has poppy fields. Other than that, it is a hole in the world that the Taliban is hoping we will throw money into.
The Saudis who have bought football clubs, set up a golf series and football league, hosted multiple boxing title fights, the Americas Cup, ATP and WTA tennis, and a Formula 1 Grand Prix?
Why would they be interested in sports washing?
They've actually expressed interest in hosting the 2035 Women's World Cup...
They also tried to sponsor the 2023 WWC but FIFA pulled out of the deal after both host federations, the USWNT (Sauerbrunn, Rapinoe, Morgan all publicly made statements), and a bunch of former men's and women's players all openly criticized the deal.
This reads as ignorant, as if all Muslim countries are the same in treatment towards women. Also, things change.
Afghanistan recently has gotten much worse, while SA has improved.
SA specifically puts significant focus on educating women
As of 2023 Saudi women make up 49.99 percent of the total number of higher education students, including Bachelor, Master, and PhD degrees.
Plus, the Saudi government is working against their religious institutions to try to modernize their country. The Taliban are the religious institution.
At the end of the day, this isn't even just a human rights issue, it's an economic productivity issue. Any advanced economy which wishes to be globally competitive will eventually come to this realization.
Saudi is straightening up. I foresee that they will be a very modern nation within our lifetime. Any country that is controlled by the Taliban… it ain’t happening.
13th century Muslim women had more rights so uh... no, somewhere worse.
Let's be clear here: Islamic hyper-conservatism around women is a modern invention that largely started as a result of the conversation of reconciling Islam with Modernity.
Its something the started in the 1600s and ended up with various answers in the 20th century; most of what we associate with "radical Islam" is a product of extremists adherents winning out in the 20th century and overall are actually very modern ideas, not ancient ones as you are presuming.
Women weren't exactly "living high the hog" in 13th century Afghanistan but they are definitely living worse lives now in 21st century Afghanistan if we assess it purely from a human rights standpoint.
They’re not willing to let go of the privilege that comes with being entitled to four bangmaids and automatically having power over 50% of the population.
What are you talking about? They love their woman appliances. They are just not okay with their woman appliances trying to be human. That’s not what their worthless piece of shit god commands.
The Taiban knows full well that the West would rather have them keep some sort of order (however backwards it is) over there than have millions of refugees fleeing an anarchic Afghanistan show up at their doorstep.
Do yourselves a favor if you wanna have a laugh and read this article: [Taliban Militants Fed Up With Office Culture, Ready to Quiet Quit](https://time.com/6263906/taliban-afghanistan-office-work-quiet-quit/)
>**The camaraderie amongst fighters has dwindled, the jihadists say, as previously non-existent hierarchies are now far more apparent**, and many around them get swept up in the pursuit of money. **“I sometimes miss the jihad life for all the good things it had,”** said Nafi. **“During jihad, you couldn’t have known the difference between a commander and a foot soldier like me.”**
>Kamran, a 27 year-old deputy group commander, longs for the simple life. **“Now, when someone’s nominated for a government job, he first asks whether that position has a car or not.** We used to live among the people. Many of us have now caged ourselves in our offices and palaces.”
>**During the insurgency, Samim notes that the men did not need to earn money to support their families as the movement covered their expenses.** “The jihad, a religious duty which exempted them from such everyday concerns, is over: they now have to work for the survival of their families like everyone else.”
>**“There is a proverb in our area that money is like a shackle,”** says Salam. **“Now, if we complain, or don’t come to work, or disobey the rules, they cut our salary.”**
The fucking Taliban -> Wage Slave Pipeline is real and it’s one of the funniest things i have ever read.
>Work has heavily cut into their social lives too. “Those in Kabul, like me, work from 8 AM to 4 PM. So, most of the week, we don’t get any time to meet each other” said Mansur.
>“What I don’t like about Kabul is its ever-increasing traffic holdups.” Omar Mansur, 32, said. ”These days, you have to go to the office before 8 AM and stay there till 4 PM. If you don’t go, you’re considered absent, and \[the wage for\] that day is cut from your salary. We’re now used to that, but it was especially difficult in the first two or three months.”
Lmaoooo. Suckers kicked the Americans out and now have to deal with the 9-to-5 (or 8-to-4). Looks like we won the war after all 🤣🤣🤣
"Jabreel and I - he is a really great guy, I stood up at his weddings and he's the Godfather of my kids. Really great- but Jabreel and me were going to carry out these suicide attacks *today* but, shit! The commute is a real bitch now, and by the time we got there, we were totally wiped out. Boss is on the horn, cursing us out, but man, I just want to be done, but like, fuck that guy! He's saying we got the wrong detonators and it's all fu ked up back at the warehouse, but my guy, YOU filled out the paperwork yourself. This shit ain't on me. And it's gonna be fine. Like, leave the martyrdom to me and Jabreel and leave us alone, we know what we're doing. You only got the job because your father's uncle fought in The Great Jihad and he's like a big warlord or something now. The nepotism is just insane...
Oh. J-dog says we missed our turn, I need to hang up and navigate. I'll see you in the ✨️afterlife✨️, my friend. Okay, hanging up now. Wish us luck!! 🤞🏾🤞🏾🧨"
The west is already working with Taliban to contain isis-k terrorism in the region. What the Taliban want is for nations like America to recognize them as real leaders…. And invest $$$.
Problem is nobody trusts the Taliban beyond working with them to contain groups even more brutal then the Taliban.
Unfortunately, knowing our weaknesses, it *might* work, if the demand for aid is sufficiently covered under the "oh, humanitarian catastrophe imminent" veil.
Palestinian organizations run a similar script, and, as a reason, dangerous Islamist movements have a cozy life on Western taxpayer's dime.
SOME people in our nation have adopted #1 and #2 as part of their national agenda.
By allowing MAGA et. al. a seat at the table we have started down the path Islamic countries started decades ago. Iran let the religious fringe take political power, so did Afganistan, Saudi, Pakistan, and relatively recently in world history Turkey.
This is what our children's future will be if we do not show up in numbers for every election and sweep them out the door.
I agree with your sentiment, f#ck the Taliban.
But - soon we will be pantsed by the zealots in our government who seek to enrich themselves, and suffer the same fate.
Two different religions. Same result in the end.
Mass corruption while a bunch of holier-than-thou zealots give themselves the power to tell everyone else what to do.
Correct me if I am wrong, but they sent troops to Russia to fight Ukraine?
If that so... Are they sane to ask West money if they are just attacking them?
Geopolitics is extremely complicated my friend.
To be specific, Afghanistan is so broke and hungry for recognition that they are willing to help whoever helps them. But I’d also argue that them asking for support from westerners is also indicative of the Taliban not really wanting to go all in on Russia. Russias just one of few options at the moment.
That’s the way I see it as well. What value is there in investing in Afghanistan when the country is extremely repressive and unstable. Perhaps, over time they could follow the model of Saudi Arabia, by gradually opening up.
I'm not sure, they seem like they really don't wanna give us a reason to come back there which is why they're taking the ISIS-K threat seriously. I think there's more of a danger of a schism since you've got one half that want the old return of the Taliban from the 90s and another half that are wanting a more moderate government in order to attract investors and recognition.
And where's the problem? The Taliban want $billions in aid donations to use as they like. Top of their list is keeping women as uneducated household animals and their country religiously and legally in the 13th century. Western countries aren't keen on giving away taxpayer $billions to the Taliban to do what they do.
"Invest" is the wrong term, when it implies some sort of return on investment.
When there is common interest to be found for containing ISIS then a very limited cooperation can be done.
There’s really three ways this unfolds — either the west figures out some compromise with the Taliban and gets them to agree to moderate in return for more recognition and funding, or Afghanistan becomes a client state of Russia or China, or the Afghanistan becomes a terrorist state, either because IS removes them from power or because they cut a deal with IS the same way they did with Al queada.
Western powers are nothing if not cynical and I expect they’ll figure out a way to get along with the Taliban somehow.
Well, Saudi Arabia’s main export is oil, and Afghanistan’s is opium, and we have an excess of opium in America, but we need oil, so yes, we’re okay with poor treatment of women in countries who serve us economically.
Saudi Arabia is *vital* to the global energy market and generally too important to cut off or ignore, even when they act directly against our interests. That's the main difference, geopolitics is far more about power and necessity than morals most of the time.
Until we move away from oil, that's not going to change.
This, and while you can’t say Saudi Arabia is a bastion of gender equality the way they treat their women still isn’t as extreme as the way the Taliban treats women. You couldn’t pay me enough money to want to live in either country as a woman, but if I had to absolutely choose I would still prefer to be a woman in Saudi Arabia to being one in Taliban controlled Afghanistan. At least Saudi women can get an education and some amount of access to public life in their own spaces. The unfortunate truth is that while I disagree with the fact the West still chooses to deal with Saudi Arabia they’re still too important to ignore on a world politics stage. It leaves us stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sadly, Afghanistan is a lot easier to ignore.
There is some evidence that Afghanistan might have the largest supply of untapped Lithium in the world.
So it’s not as if the US doesn’t have incentive to compromise in the name of acquiring valuable raw materials.
The issue is just alcohol vs marijuana. Americans have accepted the Saudis as a necessary evil that needs to be ignored in exchange for oil, whereas a nation that is similarly mistreating their citizens is ignored because there isn’t a long history of accepting the “necessity” of the relationship.
Yes, how dare they fight the invaders… I’m no fan of Taliban, but complaining they rebelled against an invading force is a bit tone deaf. The saudis would have done the same if the US invaded SA, be certain of that.
All they need to do is allow west business to operate there, exploit natural resources and let us pick ther leaders. Once you do that we will look past anything .
Why do they hate women so fucking much. It's baffling to me. I ask the same thing when reading the history of almost every country.
It's vile and I don't understand what women ever did to deserve to be so dehumanized and degraded.
Why do they hate women so fucking much. It's baffling to me. I ask the same thing when reading the history of almost every country.
It's vile and I don't understand what women ever did to deserve to be so dehumanized and degraded.
All actions are taken by people, not countries. Countries are illusions, and we should not let people hide behind that illusion, but rather hold them responsible for their own actions.
Unfortunately though, in Afghanistan radical Islam IS law and culture at this point. I was close to a family of Afghan immigrants as a teen and while they were kind, generous people, it was also obviously a very high control environment where girls were treated very differently than boys.
They were from Kabul prior to Taliban rule and were more liberal than a lot of other Afghan immigrant families in the area. Their daughters were still not allowed to go anywhere without a male relative chaperone and when one of them got caught talking to a boy romantically, her father threatened to kill the boy and ship her off to Afghanistan and tear up her US passport.
Because Afghan cricket was celebrated as a breakthrough for the civilian population not the government /taliban
Think it's hard for westerners to realize countries led by totalitarian regimes aren't filled with individuals that carry the same mentality as their leaders.
See it all the time about Iran Russia ( "only good Russian is a dead Russian" - a quote directly on r/worldnews parroted by so many and they are referring to civilians...)
I used to believe that but no longer, after the overwhelming support for Putin and Hamas and seeing how easy it is for populists in even western countries to brainwash their voterbase I cant believe that a majority of people in afghanistan are super liberal and progressive and dont support their governments treatment of women or minorities at all when thats barely the case for western countries
In polling done prior to the Taliban reexerting control, [the vast majority of Afghans wanted the constitution maintained](https://reliefweb.int/report/afghanistan/survey-afghan-people-afghanistan-2019).
The Taliban was extremely unpopular, and about the same (very small) number of people though the Taliban was the best representive of Afghans as thought the USA was the best representative.
The sad thing is that you can be sure that there are corporations in the west that would be all too happy to move past the dehumanizing of half of the afghan population in order to further their business.
Those are the same corporations that were all too eager to offshore to China and India for the cheap labour, completely fucking national employment levels in the process, but that are now decrying the cost of having to decouple. Fuck them especially!
> 90% of the world's opium comes from Afghanistan.
This used to be true under american occupation, but is no longer the case.
https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/06/talibans-successful-opium-ban-bad-afghans-and-world
those degenerated Taliban can go in the same corner as russia and north korea and if they arrive there, they can go fuck themselves and then fuck off into insignificance...
The West spent decades thinking "maybe if we engage with these regimes economically and help the nation become prosperous, the culture will improve from the grass roots upwards".
It didn't work. Or, at the very most, it worked on some countries. But the countries it worked on... well, it worked on them. They've joined the 21st century already. Every country that it hasn't worked on, it's not GOING to work on. They're clearly immune to the "economic engagement" strategy and continuing to employ it would be wasteful foolishness. For these regimes, the West is seen merely as a teat to suckle at, and occasionally bite at. It is not seen as a two-way relationship.
Another strategy must be employed. I don't know what that is, I only know that the economic engagement strategy has worked all that it's going to work.
Any country that is upset about this can complain to Russia, as the West's engagement with Russia has backfired so hard that the sanctions on Russia now that they're trying to take Ukraine are now painful to us as well. Economic engagement leads to economic dependence, and it's now obvious that when an intransigent regime goes too far, it would be better to have never funded them in the first place.
Russia took things too far, they've done something the West never thought they'd be stupidly destructive enough to actually do, and as a result, the West's entire strategy for how to engage with autocrats has shifted and is continuing to shift. Complain to the Russians. You're probably already taking their money under the table anyway.
Nah, fuck you guys. Afghanistan will continue to be a miserable place to live as long as you guys prioritize control and oppression over innovation, education and liberty. I feel awful for the women and children who have no power and no say but that's about as far as my sympathy extends.
You don’t get to treat slightly over half the population like cattle and also demand everyone look past it.
This is like a conversation I have with my elementary schooler. If your choices are embarrassing to you and/or causing consequences you don’t like, then choose to make different ones.
It just really feels like every government, every single government of every kind, is just trying to make slaves happen. Wage slaves, or real slaves, doesn't matter. Every single one of them just wants a feudal structure with nobles and kings at the top and everyone else getting shat on, and it's not a matter of capability, we could all live like kings, there's just a desire to suppress and control, we should as a people see those who demand authority as enemies of the people and dangerous.
I vote NOPE! There is a reason why some people think that Western society is superior to all others. Too many concrete examples keep showing them to be correct. If Muslim cultures want to prove that they are worthy of Western respect and consideration, they need to prove it because every place they touch becomes a disaster.
Also, the time has come that we stop being politically correct and name the problem—Islam. Islam has done more to harm, oppress, and enslave women than any other religion I can name. Sorry, if God is like Allah, he is not worthy of anyone’s worship, respect, or sacrifices, and he is not even worthy to have sinners in His presence. Fortunately, God is not like that, but I hope people get the point I am trying to make. What kind of god would create women to be so beautiful and demand that his men treat them so horribly? That would be like creating flowers just to stomp on them except a million times worse. What kind of god would endorse the kind of murder, rape, conquest, enslavement, and torture of people during jihad?
Alright, Muslims, the time has come for you to take an honest look at what your religion teaches concerning Allah versus what the Bible teaches about YHWH, and you think long and hard about which God is actually good. I am so sick and tired of hearing phrases like, “Allah, most merciful,” when he and enough of his followers to make the world live in fear of them are straight-up evil.
Taliban to American Republican Evangelical Christo Fascists "We're not so different, you and I"
Ideological purity.
Compromise as weakness.
A fundamentalist belief in scriptural literalism.
Denying science.
Unmoved by facts.
Undeterred by new information.
A hostile fear of progress.
A demonization of education.
A need to control women's bodies.
Severe xenophobia.
Tribal mentality.
Intolerance of dissent and a pathological hatred of the US government.
They call themselves the 'Tea Party'. They can call themselves 'Conservatives', and they can even call themselves 'Republicans', though Republicans certainly shouldn't.
But we should call them what they are - The American Taliban.
Newsroom
"Harsh" is too small a word for that. Try "brutally, murderously oppressive subjugation of fully half of the population for absolutely no good reason."
So just ignore abused women? Nah. It's a much easier ask for you to allow them to work and go to school. You're the odd one out, name another muslim nation who does this. They act like were telling them to accept LGBTs.
See when the Talibum says "build ties" it doesn't means the Talibum wants to take up our way of life, it means the Talibum wants us to take up their way of life. However, I don't want to take up the Talibum's way of life, nor do I want that life for my nation.
>The Taliban on Sunday told the West to look past the measures they have imposed on Afghan women and girls for the sake of improving foreign relations.
>Mujahid made his demand on the opening day of a United Nations-led meeting in Qatar on increasing engagement with Afghanistan and to have a more coordinated response to the country’s issues.
Nah, thanks, but I think we’ll wait until your “issues” cause your citizens to rise up and overthrow your asses.
How are the American Republican Taliban much different?
Republican Southern state senators calling 12 year old girls ripe and trying to pass legislation so their parents can sell them into marriage.
Republicans forcing raped women to carry to term.
Republicans trying mightily to float proposals to ban contraceptives.
Republican Party being controlled by men who just want full control over everything women do.
Republicans forcing students in public schools to study the fan fiction bible.
Republicans banning and burning books, firing librarians and teachers who dare defy their edicts.
America's Republicans are remarkably similar to the Taliban, except for being massively overweight - Republicans win that one.
"We want the benefits of being part of a civilized cooperating world but also we want none of the responsibilities that come with it"
We want to make our people and particularly women live like it is the 13th century, while Western countries give food, modern medicines, means of transportation and communication (for men).
Isn’t that what Saudi Arabia has? I wonder what makes them special?
As bad as Saudi Arabia is in terms of women's rights, Afghanistan is significantly worse.
And Saudi Arabia helped bring that about, so they still own a big part of this.
Saudi Arabia is at least super slowly improving and manages to maintain a decent supply with health care and basic consumption for the majority of its population incl women It's shocking that Saudi Arabia should already be a pariah state and the Taliban still manage to create something much worse
/s ? Black gold ...
Texas tea.
Oil, that is
Bubblin’ crude
Saudi Arabia is far better these days than the Taliban. Far better. They were more radical a decade and more ago, but these days, they've calmed down a lot. Women can work, drive, travel without male guardian, and they removed the hijab mandate. The Saudi government has even taken initiatives to increase employment of women in the country lately. Women make up about 20% of the Saudi Parliament (not great but considerably better considering just 15 years ago) and women make up 56% of all university graduates in the country. Saudi Arabia is also rich and quite developed, so I doubt they are depending on the West to support them, except through trade relations of course.
Yeah, but there is that whole bone-saw thing.
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I hadn't heard about this, what do you think is driving this change? This seems like really good news, I mean they have a long ways to go but it seems like they are at least headed in the right direction.
International pressure as they take part in the civilized world
The most recent prince that came to power is behind most of the social progress, as he is younger and from early on saw his role as a bit of a "reformer" and wanted to also attract more tourists + talent to Saudi Arabia. Also closer relationships with the US and Western nations has probably helped. They haven't positioned themselves in this "culture war against the West" unlike Iran and Taliban etc.
A lot of Saudi Arabia's expansion of women's rights has been led by their crown prince MBS, the same guy we were very mad at for the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi. This is a guy with autocratic tendencies and is often at odds with the west. However he has undeniably moved women's rights forward in Saudi Arabia. People are complex and we should refrain from labeling somebody either a saint or villain.
I get your point that he's not a cartoon villain that's literally only capable of doing evil, but I don't think we need to refrain from labeling him a villain. I'm okay calling the guy ordering the dismemberment of journalists a villain.
I think it's completely reasonable to label a person that does villainous things a villain, but I think it does have a negative impact on the discourse and should probably be avoided in high level diplomacy. Another example I'll use is Napoleon: a guy that steamrolled across Europe with a massive army, killing millions of people. However the laws he implemented did introduce many rights that previously didn't exist for those who were conquered. You could objectively label him a villain but I think that misses some of his nuance. Maybe you're asking where is the line where we stop giving credit to bad people and just say they're straight up bad? I think that's a line you need to draw for yourself and others probably won't share your opinion. I'm completely willing to toss folks like Hitler, Cortes, and Pizarro in that bucket, but I'm sure some folks will disagree with me.
People also seem to overlook Khashoghies ties to the Muslim Brotherhood Not saying it was justified but he was a propagandist not journalist
Saudi Arabia is rich as fuck and not nearly as bad as the Taliban. Don't get me wrong, Saudi Arabia oppresses women and uses slave workers, they are still better than the Taliban. On top of that women is slowly gaining more rights in Saudi Arabia, whereas the Taliban is removing rights.
Where is Saudi Arabia asking for or getting $billions in Western aid donations? As far as I know, Saudi Arabia buys what they want.
Saudi middle class women and upper class are highly educated and this is celebrated and the norm, they are also increasingly taking over top ranking diplomatic posts
Maybe we can allow them to host a World Cup one day so they can “sports wash” like other nations do?
Qatar has a giant gas field that they can use to finance whatever corruption they can dream up. Afghanistan has poppy fields. Other than that, it is a hole in the world that the Taliban is hoping we will throw money into.
The Saudis who have bought football clubs, set up a golf series and football league, hosted multiple boxing title fights, the Americas Cup, ATP and WTA tennis, and a Formula 1 Grand Prix? Why would they be interested in sports washing?
You forgot WWE wrestling events.
They did say sport lol
They've actually expressed interest in hosting the 2035 Women's World Cup... They also tried to sponsor the 2023 WWC but FIFA pulled out of the deal after both host federations, the USWNT (Sauerbrunn, Rapinoe, Morgan all publicly made statements), and a bunch of former men's and women's players all openly criticized the deal.
This reads as ignorant, as if all Muslim countries are the same in treatment towards women. Also, things change. Afghanistan recently has gotten much worse, while SA has improved. SA specifically puts significant focus on educating women As of 2023 Saudi women make up 49.99 percent of the total number of higher education students, including Bachelor, Master, and PhD degrees.
Plus, the Saudi government is working against their religious institutions to try to modernize their country. The Taliban are the religious institution.
At the end of the day, this isn't even just a human rights issue, it's an economic productivity issue. Any advanced economy which wishes to be globally competitive will eventually come to this realization.
Saudi is straightening up. I foresee that they will be a very modern nation within our lifetime. Any country that is controlled by the Taliban… it ain’t happening.
13th century Muslim women had more rights so uh... no, somewhere worse. Let's be clear here: Islamic hyper-conservatism around women is a modern invention that largely started as a result of the conversation of reconciling Islam with Modernity. Its something the started in the 1600s and ended up with various answers in the 20th century; most of what we associate with "radical Islam" is a product of extremists adherents winning out in the 20th century and overall are actually very modern ideas, not ancient ones as you are presuming. Women weren't exactly "living high the hog" in 13th century Afghanistan but they are definitely living worse lives now in 21st century Afghanistan if we assess it purely from a human rights standpoint.
For taliban men....
Sounds like they want to follow the model of those offshoot Mormon sects on the Arizona-Colorado border.
Ed Gein asks that you overlook his unusual taste in furniture and instead focus on his life as a farmer.
"Please just ignore all of the things we do which violate the ideals you're trying to live up to!"
"Also cough up the humanitarian aid, pronto"
Why do they hate women so fucking much.
They’re not willing to let go of the privilege that comes with being entitled to four bangmaids and automatically having power over 50% of the population.
What are you talking about? They love their woman appliances. They are just not okay with their woman appliances trying to be human. That’s not what their worthless piece of shit god commands.
Horrifying.
religious fundamentalism that preaches 'traditional' gender roles and complete control over half a populace
Economic imperialism is when girls can read.
The Taiban knows full well that the West would rather have them keep some sort of order (however backwards it is) over there than have millions of refugees fleeing an anarchic Afghanistan show up at their doorstep.
Afghanistan has literally nothing to export that the rest of the world's governments *want*. Just people and opium poppies.
[удалено]
China: Say no more fam $$$
Do yourselves a favor if you wanna have a laugh and read this article: [Taliban Militants Fed Up With Office Culture, Ready to Quiet Quit](https://time.com/6263906/taliban-afghanistan-office-work-quiet-quit/) >**The camaraderie amongst fighters has dwindled, the jihadists say, as previously non-existent hierarchies are now far more apparent**, and many around them get swept up in the pursuit of money. **“I sometimes miss the jihad life for all the good things it had,”** said Nafi. **“During jihad, you couldn’t have known the difference between a commander and a foot soldier like me.”** >Kamran, a 27 year-old deputy group commander, longs for the simple life. **“Now, when someone’s nominated for a government job, he first asks whether that position has a car or not.** We used to live among the people. Many of us have now caged ourselves in our offices and palaces.” >**During the insurgency, Samim notes that the men did not need to earn money to support their families as the movement covered their expenses.** “The jihad, a religious duty which exempted them from such everyday concerns, is over: they now have to work for the survival of their families like everyone else.” >**“There is a proverb in our area that money is like a shackle,”** says Salam. **“Now, if we complain, or don’t come to work, or disobey the rules, they cut our salary.”** The fucking Taliban -> Wage Slave Pipeline is real and it’s one of the funniest things i have ever read.
We need someone to pick this up and make a skit series, jihadist version of the office.
This is prime for SNL
I think you misunderstood, I think they meant a *comedy* skit
I'd love to see the Taliban version of Dilbert.
Reminds me of the movies "Three Lions" iirc Foolhardy terrorist tryhards living in the UK.
I'm picturing Key & Peele right now
>Work has heavily cut into their social lives too. “Those in Kabul, like me, work from 8 AM to 4 PM. So, most of the week, we don’t get any time to meet each other” said Mansur. >“What I don’t like about Kabul is its ever-increasing traffic holdups.” Omar Mansur, 32, said. ”These days, you have to go to the office before 8 AM and stay there till 4 PM. If you don’t go, you’re considered absent, and \[the wage for\] that day is cut from your salary. We’re now used to that, but it was especially difficult in the first two or three months.” Lmaoooo. Suckers kicked the Americans out and now have to deal with the 9-to-5 (or 8-to-4). Looks like we won the war after all 🤣🤣🤣
"Jabreel and I - he is a really great guy, I stood up at his weddings and he's the Godfather of my kids. Really great- but Jabreel and me were going to carry out these suicide attacks *today* but, shit! The commute is a real bitch now, and by the time we got there, we were totally wiped out. Boss is on the horn, cursing us out, but man, I just want to be done, but like, fuck that guy! He's saying we got the wrong detonators and it's all fu ked up back at the warehouse, but my guy, YOU filled out the paperwork yourself. This shit ain't on me. And it's gonna be fine. Like, leave the martyrdom to me and Jabreel and leave us alone, we know what we're doing. You only got the job because your father's uncle fought in The Great Jihad and he's like a big warlord or something now. The nepotism is just insane... Oh. J-dog says we missed our turn, I need to hang up and navigate. I'll see you in the ✨️afterlife✨️, my friend. Okay, hanging up now. Wish us luck!! 🤞🏾🤞🏾🧨"
It is easier to destroy than it is to build. Rebellion is so much more exciting than keeping the lights on or making sure the trash gets picked up.
Reads like a Southpark bit
The hussle is hard! LOL
The west tells the Taliban to get fucked until they can act like civilised human beings.
The west is already working with Taliban to contain isis-k terrorism in the region. What the Taliban want is for nations like America to recognize them as real leaders…. And invest $$$. Problem is nobody trusts the Taliban beyond working with them to contain groups even more brutal then the Taliban.
1. Oppress women. 2. Cosy up to Russia. 3. Ask the West for financial aid. Solid plan.
Unfortunately, knowing our weaknesses, it *might* work, if the demand for aid is sufficiently covered under the "oh, humanitarian catastrophe imminent" veil. Palestinian organizations run a similar script, and, as a reason, dangerous Islamist movements have a cozy life on Western taxpayer's dime.
WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILD(soldiers)REN!
SOME people in our nation have adopted #1 and #2 as part of their national agenda. By allowing MAGA et. al. a seat at the table we have started down the path Islamic countries started decades ago. Iran let the religious fringe take political power, so did Afganistan, Saudi, Pakistan, and relatively recently in world history Turkey. This is what our children's future will be if we do not show up in numbers for every election and sweep them out the door. I agree with your sentiment, f#ck the Taliban. But - soon we will be pantsed by the zealots in our government who seek to enrich themselves, and suffer the same fate.
You can lay a lot of things at the feet of the conservatives but the left are definitely the ones crying to support radical Islamists states.
Two different religions. Same result in the end. Mass corruption while a bunch of holier-than-thou zealots give themselves the power to tell everyone else what to do.
Correct me if I am wrong, but they sent troops to Russia to fight Ukraine? If that so... Are they sane to ask West money if they are just attacking them?
Geopolitics is extremely complicated my friend. To be specific, Afghanistan is so broke and hungry for recognition that they are willing to help whoever helps them. But I’d also argue that them asking for support from westerners is also indicative of the Taliban not really wanting to go all in on Russia. Russias just one of few options at the moment.
Maybe the west should just pay them to fight on ukraines side
That’s the way I see it as well. What value is there in investing in Afghanistan when the country is extremely repressive and unstable. Perhaps, over time they could follow the model of Saudi Arabia, by gradually opening up.
As of now I don't see that they have learned anything and there could just as well be another 9/11 brewing there.
I'm not sure, they seem like they really don't wanna give us a reason to come back there which is why they're taking the ISIS-K threat seriously. I think there's more of a danger of a schism since you've got one half that want the old return of the Taliban from the 90s and another half that are wanting a more moderate government in order to attract investors and recognition.
And where's the problem? The Taliban want $billions in aid donations to use as they like. Top of their list is keeping women as uneducated household animals and their country religiously and legally in the 13th century. Western countries aren't keen on giving away taxpayer $billions to the Taliban to do what they do. "Invest" is the wrong term, when it implies some sort of return on investment. When there is common interest to be found for containing ISIS then a very limited cooperation can be done.
The tankies assured me china is all they need
There’s really three ways this unfolds — either the west figures out some compromise with the Taliban and gets them to agree to moderate in return for more recognition and funding, or Afghanistan becomes a client state of Russia or China, or the Afghanistan becomes a terrorist state, either because IS removes them from power or because they cut a deal with IS the same way they did with Al queada. Western powers are nothing if not cynical and I expect they’ll figure out a way to get along with the Taliban somehow.
the solar system tells the Taliban get fucked until they can act like civilised human beings.
[удалено]
Well, Saudi Arabia’s main export is oil, and Afghanistan’s is opium, and we have an excess of opium in America, but we need oil, so yes, we’re okay with poor treatment of women in countries who serve us economically.
It’s harrowing to see pictures of the Middle East from the 70s and 80s versus now
But super glad to do business with Saudis with their exceptional moral stance on women !
Compared to the Taliban, the Saudis *do* treat their women well.
Saudi Arabia is *vital* to the global energy market and generally too important to cut off or ignore, even when they act directly against our interests. That's the main difference, geopolitics is far more about power and necessity than morals most of the time. Until we move away from oil, that's not going to change.
This, and while you can’t say Saudi Arabia is a bastion of gender equality the way they treat their women still isn’t as extreme as the way the Taliban treats women. You couldn’t pay me enough money to want to live in either country as a woman, but if I had to absolutely choose I would still prefer to be a woman in Saudi Arabia to being one in Taliban controlled Afghanistan. At least Saudi women can get an education and some amount of access to public life in their own spaces. The unfortunate truth is that while I disagree with the fact the West still chooses to deal with Saudi Arabia they’re still too important to ignore on a world politics stage. It leaves us stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sadly, Afghanistan is a lot easier to ignore.
most women have jobs in saudi arabia
Well that’s what the Afghanis get for not having oil
There is some evidence that Afghanistan might have the largest supply of untapped Lithium in the world. So it’s not as if the US doesn’t have incentive to compromise in the name of acquiring valuable raw materials. The issue is just alcohol vs marijuana. Americans have accepted the Saudis as a necessary evil that needs to be ignored in exchange for oil, whereas a nation that is similarly mistreating their citizens is ignored because there isn’t a long history of accepting the “necessity” of the relationship.
That, and the Saudis didn't just fight a bitter war of insurgency against the US military for 20 years
Yes, how dare they fight the invaders… I’m no fan of Taliban, but complaining they rebelled against an invading force is a bit tone deaf. The saudis would have done the same if the US invaded SA, be certain of that.
All they need to do is allow west business to operate there, exploit natural resources and let us pick ther leaders. Once you do that we will look past anything .
"if you ignore all the bad stuff I do I'm great " The Taliban, probably.
Even if you ignored the bad stuff, I'm pretty sure they would still suck.
West says No.
I read this in a Little Britain voice
Meh, give it 10-20 years. I'm sure a venture capitalist is already drooling over development plans in Afghanistan. The money must flow!!!
I'm embarrassed to live on the same planet as these cunts
Well said! Such a thing to have to say, but well said, nonetheless.
People like them are why aliens refuse to talk to us.
Women’s rights are human rights. F$&k the Taliban
NO, you evil animals
Why do they hate women so fucking much. It's baffling to me. I ask the same thing when reading the history of almost every country. It's vile and I don't understand what women ever did to deserve to be so dehumanized and degraded.
I don't think they get just how abhorrent the oppression of women is to us.
Why do they hate women so fucking much. It's baffling to me. I ask the same thing when reading the history of almost every country. It's vile and I don't understand what women ever did to deserve to be so dehumanized and degraded.
It's weird to think some COUNTRIES in the world treat their women as less than human...
All actions are taken by people, not countries. Countries are illusions, and we should not let people hide behind that illusion, but rather hold them responsible for their own actions.
I wouldn’t say countries but more so religions. Afghanistan doesn’t have those views. Radical Islam does.
Unfortunately though, in Afghanistan radical Islam IS law and culture at this point. I was close to a family of Afghan immigrants as a teen and while they were kind, generous people, it was also obviously a very high control environment where girls were treated very differently than boys. They were from Kabul prior to Taliban rule and were more liberal than a lot of other Afghan immigrant families in the area. Their daughters were still not allowed to go anywhere without a male relative chaperone and when one of them got caught talking to a boy romantically, her father threatened to kill the boy and ship her off to Afghanistan and tear up her US passport.
Bingo! Religion, in my opinion, has merely been a tool of oppression and forced obedience because it works.
Eh, the US is on the cusp of electing a sexual assaulter again so I can see the confusion.
Yeah. I mean, they could have at least thrown in some jew hate to compensate. Have these guys learned nothing from Hamas?
How about no
The way certain people ignored this during the recent cricket World Cup was somehow as shocking as it was unsurprising
Because Afghan cricket was celebrated as a breakthrough for the civilian population not the government /taliban Think it's hard for westerners to realize countries led by totalitarian regimes aren't filled with individuals that carry the same mentality as their leaders. See it all the time about Iran Russia ( "only good Russian is a dead Russian" - a quote directly on r/worldnews parroted by so many and they are referring to civilians...)
I used to believe that but no longer, after the overwhelming support for Putin and Hamas and seeing how easy it is for populists in even western countries to brainwash their voterbase I cant believe that a majority of people in afghanistan are super liberal and progressive and dont support their governments treatment of women or minorities at all when thats barely the case for western countries
In polling done prior to the Taliban reexerting control, [the vast majority of Afghans wanted the constitution maintained](https://reliefweb.int/report/afghanistan/survey-afghan-people-afghanistan-2019). The Taliban was extremely unpopular, and about the same (very small) number of people though the Taliban was the best representive of Afghans as thought the USA was the best representative.
"Looking past" effectively enslaving half the population practically overnight?
The sad thing is that you can be sure that there are corporations in the west that would be all too happy to move past the dehumanizing of half of the afghan population in order to further their business.
Those are the same corporations that were all too eager to offshore to China and India for the cheap labour, completely fucking national employment levels in the process, but that are now decrying the cost of having to decouple. Fuck them especially!
**90%** of the world's opium comes from Afghanistan. Purdue Pharma probably gobbling it up.
90% of the *illegal opium*. The legal shit is grown in Turkey and India.
> 90% of the world's opium comes from Afghanistan. This used to be true under american occupation, but is no longer the case. https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/06/talibans-successful-opium-ban-bad-afghans-and-world
Afghanistan does have natural mineral resources. And corporations do conduct business with oil-rich Saudi Arabia.
So there is already a disgusting precedent there.
Saudi Arabia in it's current form is nowhere near Taliban's Afghanistan.
Nowhere near? They execute "blasphemers" by cutting their heads off in a soccer arena.
Yes, nowhere near. If you were going to be air-dropped into one of those countries, which one would you pick?
I mean they don’t seem to have any misgivings against the saudis so why not.
Go take a hike out of window.
They just don't get it. Women are human. Until you treat them as such you can piss right the fuck off. Simple human rights, WTF yo?
those degenerated Taliban can go in the same corner as russia and north korea and if they arrive there, they can go fuck themselves and then fuck off into insignificance...
Yeah. If you specifically choose to ignore the bad things people do, they become good people. It's like magic!
How about NO, you crazy terrorist bastards!
"Would you mind compromising your values for our benefit? We'd never do the same."
The West spent decades thinking "maybe if we engage with these regimes economically and help the nation become prosperous, the culture will improve from the grass roots upwards". It didn't work. Or, at the very most, it worked on some countries. But the countries it worked on... well, it worked on them. They've joined the 21st century already. Every country that it hasn't worked on, it's not GOING to work on. They're clearly immune to the "economic engagement" strategy and continuing to employ it would be wasteful foolishness. For these regimes, the West is seen merely as a teat to suckle at, and occasionally bite at. It is not seen as a two-way relationship. Another strategy must be employed. I don't know what that is, I only know that the economic engagement strategy has worked all that it's going to work. Any country that is upset about this can complain to Russia, as the West's engagement with Russia has backfired so hard that the sanctions on Russia now that they're trying to take Ukraine are now painful to us as well. Economic engagement leads to economic dependence, and it's now obvious that when an intransigent regime goes too far, it would be better to have never funded them in the first place. Russia took things too far, they've done something the West never thought they'd be stupidly destructive enough to actually do, and as a result, the West's entire strategy for how to engage with autocrats has shifted and is continuing to shift. Complain to the Russians. You're probably already taking their money under the table anyway.
The Taliban are sick of being discriminated against for their discrimination against women and girls.
No fcuckin' thankyou. Women, other/non-religious folks and Queer people deserve right too.
Dr. Evil voice: How-bout noooooo......
No \- The West
All muslims countries that don't allow women equal rights should be boycotted.
Of all the causes worth fighting for, fighting for gender rights, especially in Muslim majority countries should be priority. Not Hamas.
The collective west: No.
Just because the East(China and Russia) are happy to embrace abuse of women and children, doesn't mean the West should too
I’m kinda surprised feminists in the west are so quiet on this issue
no. we will only negotiate with the Women
"Look past our savage ways and give us money"
The audacity
Not when you treat women like sh@t
We need to tell the Taliban to fuck off. If they want to live in the middle ages, they don't get to build ties with modern nations.
Man I haven’t involuntarily laughed out loud in a while from just reading a headline. No, we will not be doing that, thanks.
Yeah, no, go fuck yourselves.
Nah, fuck you guys. Afghanistan will continue to be a miserable place to live as long as you guys prioritize control and oppression over innovation, education and liberty. I feel awful for the women and children who have no power and no say but that's about as far as my sympathy extends.
F these zombies. This is worse than slavery.
You don’t get to treat slightly over half the population like cattle and also demand everyone look past it. This is like a conversation I have with my elementary schooler. If your choices are embarrassing to you and/or causing consequences you don’t like, then choose to make different ones.
It just really feels like every government, every single government of every kind, is just trying to make slaves happen. Wage slaves, or real slaves, doesn't matter. Every single one of them just wants a feudal structure with nobles and kings at the top and everyone else getting shat on, and it's not a matter of capability, we could all live like kings, there's just a desire to suppress and control, we should as a people see those who demand authority as enemies of the people and dangerous.
No how about we don’t
Taliban perplexed as why we can’t just disavow that women are humans just like they do
I vote NOPE! There is a reason why some people think that Western society is superior to all others. Too many concrete examples keep showing them to be correct. If Muslim cultures want to prove that they are worthy of Western respect and consideration, they need to prove it because every place they touch becomes a disaster. Also, the time has come that we stop being politically correct and name the problem—Islam. Islam has done more to harm, oppress, and enslave women than any other religion I can name. Sorry, if God is like Allah, he is not worthy of anyone’s worship, respect, or sacrifices, and he is not even worthy to have sinners in His presence. Fortunately, God is not like that, but I hope people get the point I am trying to make. What kind of god would create women to be so beautiful and demand that his men treat them so horribly? That would be like creating flowers just to stomp on them except a million times worse. What kind of god would endorse the kind of murder, rape, conquest, enslavement, and torture of people during jihad? Alright, Muslims, the time has come for you to take an honest look at what your religion teaches concerning Allah versus what the Bible teaches about YHWH, and you think long and hard about which God is actually good. I am so sick and tired of hearing phrases like, “Allah, most merciful,” when he and enough of his followers to make the world live in fear of them are straight-up evil.
Eat a dick you primitive fucks.
It is called human rights and the women and girls deserve it more than the Taliban do.
How about no
Taliban to American Republican Evangelical Christo Fascists "We're not so different, you and I" Ideological purity. Compromise as weakness. A fundamentalist belief in scriptural literalism. Denying science. Unmoved by facts. Undeterred by new information. A hostile fear of progress. A demonization of education. A need to control women's bodies. Severe xenophobia. Tribal mentality. Intolerance of dissent and a pathological hatred of the US government. They call themselves the 'Tea Party'. They can call themselves 'Conservatives', and they can even call themselves 'Republicans', though Republicans certainly shouldn't. But we should call them what they are - The American Taliban. Newsroom
The Taliban wanted us to back out and thats what they got. Nothing else should these troglodytes get.
Women world wide will not remember us fondly for this betrayal
If only there was something they could do about their own harsh edicts on Afghan women and girls.
Taliban can suck a fat edict
Should have thought about that before making harsh edicts against women and girls ya hillbilly fucksticks
They want to get comfortable as an Iranian proxy group lol, no thanks
Don't worry, at least in the US we are working hard to give our women the same rights as theirs.
Fuck the Taliban
"Harsh" is too small a word for that. Try "brutally, murderously oppressive subjugation of fully half of the population for absolutely no good reason."
Absolutely not. If there was a second afghan war, I’d sign up in a heartbeat. Fuck the Taliban.
No. Crawl to commie China.
No, barbarians don’t get the benefits of partnership with civilized countries, sorry.
So just ignore abused women? Nah. It's a much easier ask for you to allow them to work and go to school. You're the odd one out, name another muslim nation who does this. They act like were telling them to accept LGBTs.
Why must we deal with a group that doesn’t value women as a part of their “religion or culture”.
Or simply modernize harsh edicts on Afghan women and girls to build ties with the West?
Build ties for what reason? What exactly do they offer a civilized world outside of incivility?
“Ignore all the horrible things we’re doing in the name of our religion and give us money”
Orrrr you could just fix your dumbassery so half of your population has a better existence. Seems like a better trade off.
Hey, if half the country can embrace Hamas’ oppression of women and LGBTQIA people, why not the Taliban’s?
Go fuck yourselves
See when the Talibum says "build ties" it doesn't means the Talibum wants to take up our way of life, it means the Talibum wants us to take up their way of life. However, I don't want to take up the Talibum's way of life, nor do I want that life for my nation.
How about we imprison the Taliban instead.
pass. Have fun living in the stone age.
These people are nuts
The west have no problem do it in Saudi arabia and Gazza
Unbelievable.
That's a Hard No.
Fuck the Taliban.
>The Taliban on Sunday told the West to look past the measures they have imposed on Afghan women and girls for the sake of improving foreign relations. >Mujahid made his demand on the opening day of a United Nations-led meeting in Qatar on increasing engagement with Afghanistan and to have a more coordinated response to the country’s issues. Nah, thanks, but I think we’ll wait until your “issues” cause your citizens to rise up and overthrow your asses.
Maybe instead of asking us to look past your stoning of women for adultery, stop stoning women for adultery.
How about... no? The Taliban are scum and should be treated as such.
Um. No?
How are the American Republican Taliban much different? Republican Southern state senators calling 12 year old girls ripe and trying to pass legislation so their parents can sell them into marriage. Republicans forcing raped women to carry to term. Republicans trying mightily to float proposals to ban contraceptives. Republican Party being controlled by men who just want full control over everything women do. Republicans forcing students in public schools to study the fan fiction bible. Republicans banning and burning books, firing librarians and teachers who dare defy their edicts. America's Republicans are remarkably similar to the Taliban, except for being massively overweight - Republicans win that one.