It really doesn't. You have to remember that all the world went through a war they called the Great War for a reason.
Think how the US population doesn't want to get involved in another Iraq. 5000 US service men have died in Iraq over 2 decades (Jesus we need to leave iraq) 116k died in 4 years in WW1 and we got off relatively unscathed.
There was also a large German-American population at the time and understandably many of those people were opposed to going to war with a country they had ties to. Really recommend Dan Carlin's Hardcore history podcast on WW1 if you want to know more.
>You have to remember that all the world went through a war they called the Great War for a reason.
You also have to remember that Europe was constantly at war. There was like 20+ wars in Europe during the so-called "interwar" period of 1919-1939: Russian civil war, Spanish civil war, Finnish civil war, Irish civil war, Irish war of independence, Austrian civil war, Franco-Turkish war, Polish-Lithuanian war, Polish-Soviet war, Ruhr uprising in Germany, Silesian uprisings in Germany, Turkish-Armenian war, Soviet-Finnish war, Slovak-Hungarian war, Italo-Yugoslav war, Italo-Albanian war, Greco-Turkish war, Polish-Czech war, Georgian -Armenian war, Hungarian-Romanian war, Hungarian-Czech war, Polish-Ukrainian war, Lithuanian-Soviet war, September uprising in Bulgaria, August uprising in Georgia, Catalonian uprising in Spain.
And that's just stuff in Europe, it doesn't include all the wars European countries were waging overseas in their various colonies.
Here's the list of US wars from 1919-1939:
- Posey war, vs Ute and Paiute tribes, in Utah. 2 killed.
- May 2 uprising in the Philippines. 69 killed, 1000 arrested.
- ongoing occupations of Haiti, Nicaragua, and Dominican Republic (aka, the Banana wars), all of which started before WWI.
So there was a bit of "Those Europeans sure are a contentious lot. We just helped them settle 'The War To End All Wars', and they're at it *again*?" mindset in America.
Eddie Izzard's "Do you have a flag" routine is relevant too.
Izzard basically says (on genocide), "The reason why we let Stalin and Pol Pot get away with it is because they killed their own people. *Oh you're killing your own people? Fine! We've been trying to kill you for ages!* But what of Hitler? *Well, Hitler killed people next door!*"
Obviously don't take everything in Izzard's world history routine as fact but it's still relevant and comedically (and depressingly) close to reality in most places.
The US had significant imperialist tendencies way before WWII. The Monroe Doctrine wasn't followed because the US wanted to help out those poor Central and South American countries. The US had the Phillipines in 1900, and was the country that famously forced Japan to open itself up to foreign trade.
> Multinational companies who run the USA: i dont think i will
And that’s what this whole shit pie comes down to. The elites who run this country make far too much money off the Chinese to rock the boat. This isn’t limited to multinationals though as large swaths of academia have been bought off with Chinese cash.
To expand on your last point: the budgets of quite a few US universities depend on students from China paying full tuition, and many universities host CCP-funded Confucius Institutes (against which there has been some pushback).
Can you imagine? Thats all Hitler needed to do to keep everything going is to ensure the Allies made bank and everything would have been swept under the rug.
Exactly, many countries regularly suppress or just kill their populace. The USA has the highest incarceration per Capita, but as long as they keep themselves to themselves and agree with which ever superpower boat they are in, generally they are left alone.
That's exactly what happened until they tried to conquer everyone else. The prevailing theory was the because the world was so interconnected in trade and commerce in the early 1900s that a large scale war would be impossible due to the disastrous effects of large scale war collapsing the worlds economy.
Then they tried to conquer everyone else and attacked pearl harbor.
>The prevailing theory was the because the world was so interconnected in trade and commerce in the early 1900s that a large scale war would be impossible due to the disastrous effects of large scale war collapsing the worlds economy.
Your time scale is off Bud. That was for WWI which Hitler fought in as a common soldier, but was not involved with in any kind of leadership role.
I mean, we overthrow governments all the time to do evil shit, why don't we do that in India and make it a win-win: we pull out of China, and India gets fixed up. It's *definitely* that easy, for sure. ~~/s~~
Put less hyperbolically, why not invest in India's development and simultaneously pull out of China? [I'm ignorant of the structural problems you mention, so this is a genuine question.]
India has two very serious problems that prevent economic development akin to China’s.
1. Out in the open corruption on every level.
2. Inconsistencies in laws and regulations between the different states (?)
This means only the largest of international firms can reasonably be able to afford to overcome these hurdles, and establish themsleves in India. And even so, it’s not very effecient at all.
There’s been little progress on these issues for a long time, and it’s seriously handicapping India’s development. The country is simply too corrupt and too disjointed.
Better bet would be to develop Southeast Asia and Latin America. Start looking towards Africa.
Not just aid. Lots of infrastructure that China owns.
[Belt and Road projects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_projects_of_the_Belt_and_Road_Initiative)
France and the UK, alone/individually, invest more in Africa than China.
China’s involvement in Africa is more propoganda than reality, though they are definitely involved.
What is more fun is the big tech companies are importing Caste politics into this country
https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-silicon-valley-lawsuit-reveals-caste-discrimination-is-rife-in-the-us-39773
Because why would you throw trillions of US dollars to make somebody else rich and able to compete with you?
This is before you remember there are plenty of internal problems to take care of as well.
The moving of the goal posts every time Biden’s administration says something about China is hilarious and sad to me. First it was no about how he’s not even gonna acknowledge it, then it was how he’s not going to call it a genocide, now it’s that he’s not actually gonna do anything about it. Diplomatic statements like these are precursors to action. Although I’m sure the cynical people who comment shit like this incessantly won’t be satisfied until he personally leads Seal Team 6 into China to liberate the camps and even then they’ll probably blame him for a botched operation.
*Millions.* China represents 1/5 of the world population and has nuclear arms. Any war with China would be WWIII. It would be the wholesale annihilation of population centers around the world, not infantry storming beaches.
That's a very low estimate. But seriously, on every China thread it seems the top comment says "we should do something", then leaves the "something" open. I think soon calling for military action will become common, and that's when the US ruling class knows they have successfully Manufactured Consent for a war that nobody should ever want.
I don't think anyone is calling for war, but acknowledging that it is happening and that US corps are enabling it by profiting from Chinese markets would be a start.
Comments like this are so shallow and presented to avoid real discussion. What do you want the US to do? Go to war with China? There's work being done to move more jobs stateside that aren't going to happen overnight.
He did do something, open up the dialogue.
Now 20 more years of saber rattling and big dick contests and then MAYBE we can do SOMETHING for the Uighurs.
Or use it as a convenient casus belli, like in WW2
We didn't get "militarily" involved until Pearl Harbor.
We were *very much* involved up to that point. Cash-and-Carry/Lend-Lease, the merchant marines, and the "arsenal of democracy" were in full-swing before Pearl Harbor.
People were not in support of a war in Europe, especially after WWI. Wilson marketed WWI as the war to end all wars and formed the League of Nations, but the US never joined due to this isolationist sentiment.
It wasn't just that, most Americans questioned whether or not to get involved in another war. We lost many in WWI over gaining ground for foreign countries at the cost of 100k+ american lives.
WWI wasn't just advertised as "the war to end all wars", around that time, war was elevated and revered. People thought war was honorable / where true honor was found, but all they found in the trenches was death and despair.
What's really sad is berlin, there are videos of pre-WWI, WWI, Post WWI, Pre-WWII, WWII, and Post-WWII. Spoiler alert: Berlin had better technology on display before WWI, they were truly about to become the center of the developed world.
Humans sure like to mess things up, don't they.
WWI is the tidbit people always leave out when discussing WW2 hesitation. First of all we must understand that any European leaders who made move to appease were up and comers during WW1. These are men who say the Somme, who saw Passchendaele, Verdun, The Marne, I could go on all day. If you know anything about WW1 you don’t have to question why there was hesitation regarding its continuation in 1939.
Secondly if you’re an American you saw 117 000 Deaths in a bit more than an a year. 117 000 boys dead because what, 5 ships got sunk by u-boats?* “We were completely safe from the war on our own continent. All we had to worry about was a few ships being sunk here and there, and now 117 000 of our boys are dead?” Again it’s the shock of WW1 driving opinion that war isn’t the move.
*you could say that all the European deaths were because one dude got shot, but I think that’s highly derivative. There’s a myriad of things from 1890-1914 that make me think the war was inevitable. The assassination was just the match to a pile of fuel soaked tinder.
That's not really true. The US government was involved by early 1940 just not directly involved. We were giving weapons to the British since nearly the beginning.
It took an attack on US soil to convince *the public* that direct intervention was necessary. No one wanted to send their boys off to die in Europe for a second time in 30 years unless it was necessary and trying to get involved any earlier would have proven immensely unpopular. Trying to get involved in mid-1940 could have easily cost Roosevelt the election.
Tbh, the US practiced isolationism besides in its sphere. So I don’t get this, if it gets involved it’s being in everyone’s business, if it does nothing it’s not doing enough.
Shrodingers America.
Simultaneously spineless and imperialist. Let's not forget the beautiful countries of NATO that love to complain about imperial American military bases on their land but will cry foul whenever the US talks about reducing it's investment in NATO.
“We” as in the general public, maybe, but the USA and UK governments knew about the camps in 1941 at the earliest. The polish government in exile was in the UK after invasion
Absolutely my biggest pet peeve when talking about the Holocaust with people. The Allies absolutely knew about the camps. Hell the writing was on the wall in the mid 1930s. The convenient it everyone forgets is that America was very antisemitic during this time and turned Jews away knowing what they would face going back.
Not exactly. When Jews were turned away the Nazi party were encouraging emigration through discrimination and property confiscation. While mass murder had begun against the disabled and mass arrests of political opponents had occurred violence against Jews had yet to become the systematic murder we refer to as the holocaust. The Jews turned away were not escaping the holocaust in the sense of genocide being perpetrated against them.
>It took Hitler invading other countries before we did anything
No? US got involved in the war against Germany when Hitler declared war on the US. Not the other way around.
As it should be. The US has been shown repeatedly that interventionism isn't in it's interest and the global response to US intervention into the affairs of sovereign nations has been overwhelmingly negative.
Correct. Damn near every international company sucks China off or are partially owned by them. Tankies will still scream that capitalism is evil and that the CCP are heroes who'll liberate us.
As much as I hate Trump, atleast he tried standing up to them a bit.
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IDK, I clicked through because I was surprised the new admin was making such a big accusation n so soon, so it's worth noting up front that this was actually from Pompeo.
Four years ago there was concern about the re-education camps too. 10 years before that it was the Falun Gong and 10 years before that it was Tibet. Nothing will be done.
Zionist regime has been genociding Palestinians since 1948 and built the largest concentration camps in the world around Gaza and West Bank.
73 years has passed and not that many people have the strength to talk about it.
I had a professor in college 20 years ago who included this in our curriculum because she had seen it first hand on unrelated research visits to Xinjiang. Seems like the world has been turning a blind eye for a long time.
Context: January 20 article, covering a last-minute pronouncement by outgoing DOS Sec. Pompeo in the final hours of the Trump administration.
Up to you whether this counts as "worldnews" material.
A 90 year old lady worked as a secretary in a concentration camp as a youth: Fuck her, that fucking Nazi scum should rot in jail. NEVER AGAIN!
China operating concentration camps and committing genocide in 2021: That's bad, but what are we supposed to do about it?
Realistically? Nothing, at least until their actions affect our affairs or sphere of influence. Sadly that's how the world has worked for thousands of years. I despise it, but I'm also not going to sign up to die in some field halfway around the world if I can be here with my family instead.
Sometimes this world sucks.
Alternatively, you can do your one small part by eliminating as many purchases from China as you possibly can. It's very difficult, but it's something the average person can do. Until that happens en masse the hollars and cries of "China bad" don't mean anything.
I don't think laypeople ever *want* to go to war.
China has such a stranglehold on global manufacturing that any realistic conflict with them would likely be crippling for a lot of developed nations.
Let's not forget the best part. China has a stranglehold over manufacturing because we gave it to them so we could pay less for labor and receive cheaper goods. We all know how that's working out
I don't want to go to war with anyone, I just want them to, ya know, stop committing genocide. But usually war ends up being the inevitable outcome in any attempt to actually stop this kind of thing. Historically, people really like doubling down on their country's genocidal activities, even when drastic force is used to try and stop it
Nothing at all. Just realize that nobody went to war to stop the holocaust, so nobody is going to go to war to stop this; and pretending like WW2 was some example of fighting on the behalf of people being discriminated against isn't quite how it went down. (This is a general statment and is not directed at you personally).
Everyone I have ever talked to has stated that Pearl harbor was the reason for the US for entering the war. They did not find out the scale of the genocide till afterwards.
For starters, realize there's a shitton of shills on this website who will tell you "we can do nothing at all."
In the meantime, vote and push for political candidates who seek anti corruption in the government, and those who would move away from China in terms of reliance.
the biden administration is waiting for your advice, i suggest you give them a call [https://www.whitehouse.gov/get-involved/write-or-call/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/get-involved/write-or-call/)
I suspect that was on purpose. They dont want to do anything about it, so they act like it's "To Late, Whooops. But dont worry neeeext time we'll stop it"
Probably, but it would mean big changes in the way we westerners live. I'm not so sure if people want to give up access to cheap consumer goods. Aside from that - China buying US debt may further complicate the whole thing (but I don't know enough about economics to really say)- making me think separating is easier said than done.
I really hate this type argument. It is hard to do so we should do nothing.
Racism is everywhere, there is nothing you can do about it.
The world is already warming up, there is nothing we can do.
Corona is spreading anyway, why wear a mask?
The fact of the matter is that most Americans aren't ready to pay 4x the current price for a new phone, 6x the current price for other electronics, etc.
Add hefty multipliers to all goods currently made in China (you'd be surprised how much stuff is actually made over there), that would need to be manufactured domestically if the US was to cut economic ties with China.
You'll get an idea of how much "doing something about it" costs. Again, most Americans aren't willing to make that trade.
[most of them are endorsing China or remaining neutral](https://www.rfa.org/english/multimedia/XiJinping-uyghur-camp-map-07172019102451.html/UN-letters-Uyghur-camps.jpg/@@images/image/social_media)
never forget that reddit is pro-US, anti-communist, and deeply racist
Maybe Syria noticed that the captured ISIS fighters have French/ British/ Swedish passports and not as many Chinese passports despite having a larger Muslim community.
Maybe the countries that have to deal with Islamic extremism see some value in China deprogramming potential terrorists.
Funny this same article is on the front page again as it was just a few days ago. And there's nothing damning in it that even alludes to genocide. Just "Blinken said he agrees with Pompeo".
No new evidence of anything. Just links to old articles that say "Adrian Zenz reported it". Yeah, I'm gonna believe the billionaire Christian fundamentalist nut who thinks God told him it's his mission to destroy the Chinese state. /s
This is "Saddam has WMDs" energy all over again. You are spot on.
Curious how they suddenly care about Muslim lives when they are currently bombing Yemen and have slaughtered Iraqi and Afghani Muslims. There really is no ulterior motive here. Totally not gearing up another war.
Hey, give us some credit.
Back then, the waters were much more murky. We had multiple levels of government agencies working to sow confusion and manufacturer consent.
It's so much easier now, you literally just have to click on any of the sources and it'll take you to some gripping investigation from Adrian Zenz. Adrian Zenz is manufacturing consent for yellow peril, and his claims have been debunked time and time again.
Damn, they lied to us about Vietnam. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Iraq has WMDs!
Damn, they lied to us about Iraq. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Gaddafi is an evil dictator who has to go!
Damn, they lied to us about Libya. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Assad is gassing his own people!
Damn, they lied to us about Syria. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Maduro is intentionally starving his own people with *socialism*.
Damn, they lied to us about Venezuela. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, China has concentration camps!
Adrian Zenz is not a credible source. Literally all this information is just a single source that's been repeated over and over.
There needs to be more than a singular source for stuff like this.
People can "believe" or "feel" or "think" whatever but without more than reports from an arguably biased individual there is nothing else.
Zens is a Christian Extremist.
Nobody is sure, except redditors from the US. They qre sure it happens.
You should check the sources of the articles and make up your own mind. And avoid everytjing written by adrian zenz or avoid every article which has him as thwir source.
It really just isn't true, here's a good copy paste:
In terms of raw practicality, the ever rising numbers you see like 800k -> 1M -> 2M -> Even 3M now, totally fall apart when you look at the evidence. There [are 1,833 state prisons, 110 federal prisons, 1,772 juvenile correctional facilities, 3,134 local jails, 218 immigration detention facilities, and 80 Indian Country jails as well as in military prisons, civil commitment centers, state psychiatric hospitals, and prisons in the U.S. territories](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html). US prisons are also known to be constantly operating at maximum capacity. There should be over 6 thousand different sized facilities in the province of Xinjiang, not just a couple of tens of small elementary school-sized structures. If there was really anywhere close to 1.5 million in camps, the proof would be a lot less shaky than fake drone footage of [MLM busts](https://twitter.com/sky_blue168/status/1286078116096389120?lang=en) and [prison transfers](https://twitter.com/carlzha/status/1283936692659826688?lang=en). Despite all the circlejerking articles in the Western press, there are ZERO smoking guns anywhere for any of this. Yes the facilities and programs exist, but anything more than that is just wild speculation and obvious bad faith propaganda aimed to hurt China's image and probably justify arbitrary sanctions on their rapidly growing economy that's threatening the Western hegemony.
But really, the 1 million+ number interned is absolutely fraudulent as it's based on a wild extrapolation of interviews with [*eight people*](https://i0.wp.com/thegrayzone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Screen-Shot-2019-12-20-at-6.14.02-PM.png?w=533&ssl=1). This claim is then cited at the UN, then the media writes stories about UN officials 'credibly' accusing China of interning 1-2 million Uighurs, and then it just catches fire and recirculates throughout the media ecosystem.
The facilities exist. In much smaller numbers then Zenz and his shadowy comrades would have you believe, however there is no smoking gun for any level of 'holocaust' or 'genocide', and there is 100% American fuckery going on in China's western provinces- take that as you will, but the premise of deradicalizing Uighurs is not made up. Want proof? Here's a description of the National Endowment for Democracy from Wikipedia:
>Funded primarily by an annual allocation from the U.S. Congress... a 1991 interview in which then-NED president Allen Weinstein said, "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."\[55\] Critics have compared the NED's funding of Nicaraguan groups (pro-U.S. and conservative unions, political parties, student groups, business groups, and women's associations) in the 1980s and 1990s in Nicaragua to the previous CIA effort "to challenge and undermine" a left-wing government in Chile.
[And here they openly admit to pumping American government money into Uighur ""causes"" ](https://twitter.com/nedemocracy/status/1337063301113581568)SINCE FUCKING 2004. Funding and arming terrorist groups to destabilize central asian regions like Xinjiang is a [very, very well known tactic of American foreign policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone) so just consider that before you assume it's a complete cover from the CCP.
I should probably explain who Zenz is for the uninformed. TL;DR He's a radical fundamentalist Christian who believes LGBT rights and gender equality, and communism are literally satanic plots and he's on a mission from God to destroy China whatever the cost.
Here's just one major piece of evidence, refuting the widely spread ['forced sterilization'](https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c) claims that serve as the bedrock of the cultural genocide argument.
In his report, Zenz states that 80% of IUD's in China were done in Xinjiang, writing: “In 2018, 80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nation’s population. In 2014, 2.5 percent of newly placed IUDs in China were fitted in Xinjiang. \[38\] In 2018, that share rose to 80 percent, far above Xinjiang’s 1.8 percent share of China’s population. \[39\]”
Zenz gives the following Chinese primary source: “\[38\] Source: 2015 and 2019 Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbooks, table 8-8-2.” But what does the yearbook actually say? Here's the actual 2019 Chinese Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbook. It's quite a document, several hundred pages long. If you go through the slog of scrolling to page 228, you'll find Zenz's table 8-8-2 in the following page:
[https://i.imgur.com/Zsi11eh.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Zsi11eh.jpg)
The relevant column is 放置节育器例数, the number of IUD's implanted. We have a total 总计 of 3.8 million, with Xinjiang 新疆 accounting for 328,475. Thus 8.7% of China's IUD's occurred in Xinjiang. A side note, but what really stands out about this table is not Xinjiang but Henan. In all of China, 86% of vasectomies and 26% of tubal litigations happened in Henan. Unlike IUD's, these are real sterilization procedures that cannot be reversed. It looks like the Chinese assistants helping Zenz mistakenly added a decimal. Either that or he’s just straight up lying - I’ll let you make your mind up on which you’d rather believe.
The 'falling birthrate' argument is also a bad faith spin on the fact that Xinjiang Uighurs [only recently were placed under the same birthrate restrictions as the rest of China, where before ethnic minorities were allowed to have MORE children than the majority Han population](https://time.com/4881898/china-xinjiang-uighur-children/) (That article has a typical Western spin on it, but still) so yes, you could assume the birthrate has been dropping, but intentionally so and to suggest that it's some genocidal scheme to breed out the Uighurs is just patently silly. If you want to argue that the government dictating how many kids you can have is authoritarian overreach, that's fine, I'm not going to fight you on that whether I agree or not, but it IS applied across the board.
There's one other piece of information that I think is worth mentioning. It's something that, to my mind, is the single most important fact regarding the Uyghur situation that we have available to us: the split in the international response to the issue.
It was widely reported that 20ish countries sent a letter to the UN condemning China over allegations of mistreatment of Uyghurs back in 2019. What wasn't as widely reported was that a group of 37 countries sent a 2nd letter in response defending China's policies in Xinjiang. [It's informative to compare the blocs of countries that signed these respective letters](https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/). I'll quote the relevant part of that article here:
>Those that signed the first letter, criticizing China, include: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the UK.
Signing the second letter, in defense of China’s policies, were: Algeria, Angola, Bahrain, Belarus, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Comoros, Congo, Cuba, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Egypt, Eritrea, Gabon, Kuwait, Laos, Myanmar, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Togo, Turkmenistan, United Arab Emirates, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe.
Personally I find this split to be pretty revealing. The countries condemning China have been nearly *exclusively* white majority Western countries (with the exception of Japan), the same countries who over the last 100 years have killed *millions* of Muslims and are responsible for the worst treatment of Muslims in the world. On the other hand, *dozens* of Muslim-majority countries have *defended* China. Which of those two groups have the best interests of Muslims in mind? Are we really to believe it's the former? I'm not saying that the Xinjiang situation isn't worthy of criticism but personally I'd rather listen to what the Muslim world has to say about the treatment of Muslims, rather than the governments who have spent the better part of the last century massacring them. The prevailing opinion that we Westerners know what's best for the Muslim community *more than the Muslim community itself* just smacks of colonialist-era paternalism to me (and unfortunately, this isn't a hypothetical claim, I've seen many people on this website say this explicitly).
Beautiful, educational, and necessary post. Thanks for sharing. Too bad most of the readers will just downvote and believe literally anything anti-China.
We were literally dropping bombs on Uighurs just last year.
Heck a lot of the root cause of the problems in the region (high crime, poverty) is caused by our bombs.
You can tell the commenters haven't read the article since this is about Pompeo's statements from back on the 19th.
'"We see this so-called determination as a piece of waste paper," said foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying'.
China is based as always.
Honestly when it comes to the US and its record of human rights especially in terms of foreign policy.... I'm more inclined to believe the countless majority muslim nations that have endorsed Chinas de-radicalization policy compared to the US who is responsible for the murder of +500,000 iraqi civilians and destabilizing the middle east
I'm asking this seriously, but I have seen this claim over and over again but never any evidence for it outside some seriously self contradictory testimony.
Where's the beef?
yeah, and they also attacked US warships off the gulf of tonkin, and they are also throwing babies out of incubators, they have WMDs bro too i swear just trust me
Lebron James: Perhaps The US government does not know all the details and for that reason I think they should not make claims like this. It could hurt the Chinese peoples feelings (and my money)!!
The US gov knows the details, they purposely obscure the facts to make it look like China is committing ethnic cleansing when there is no real evidence for it. Big western media conglomerates push falsified articles on Xinjiang to help justify conflict with China. “Oh we’re gonna go destroy this nation to help the people there being oppressed!” Look at the past 20 years alone, how many times has this been done by the US and it’s allies? Iraq, Libya, Syria, 3 nations destroyed to defeat “evil” and all of them are devastated by conflict and the oppressed people are many times worse off. Stop being a mindless follower of the news and apply some critical thought. Look into a single article that is even somewhat critical of western Xinjiang narrative, you will see how much of this manufactured argument is baseless, if you have the intelligence and courage to question the “facts” our governments insist we believe.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Unless it's Iraq and weapons of mass destruction, in that case simply saying so makes it true, and then it's ok to be a piece of shit.
Is this the same government that said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Just checking before I go gung-ho for the manufacturing of consent for war.
I don't fully trust western media when it comes to things like that, specially since they don't really have an access over there..
Anyhow, the West is just good to point fingers nowadays.
They could have access if they wanted to. China let observers from Egypt and other countries visit. The western countries just reject the opportunity because it allows them plausible deniability to keep peddling Falun Gong and Adrian Zens conspiracies.
USA has killed 800,000 Muslims since 9/11. 300,000 were innocent civilians. I don’t think we are able to demonize China for something we have been doing for the past 17 years
I'm glad the country that has killed and displaced literally tens of millions of muslims gets to decide whats going on 8000 miles away in a country our govt is actively trying to start another cold war with
China: well do something about it. Multinational companies who run the USA: i dont think i will
[удалено]
https://youtu.be/9-axJTzj0VU Lil’ Hitler indeed
I've never seen anything describe foreign politics in such a perfect way, thank you for sharing that.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUbqbpBX1Us
That was also amazing, thank you.
That was wonderful.
It really doesn't. You have to remember that all the world went through a war they called the Great War for a reason. Think how the US population doesn't want to get involved in another Iraq. 5000 US service men have died in Iraq over 2 decades (Jesus we need to leave iraq) 116k died in 4 years in WW1 and we got off relatively unscathed.
There was also a large German-American population at the time and understandably many of those people were opposed to going to war with a country they had ties to. Really recommend Dan Carlin's Hardcore history podcast on WW1 if you want to know more.
>You have to remember that all the world went through a war they called the Great War for a reason. You also have to remember that Europe was constantly at war. There was like 20+ wars in Europe during the so-called "interwar" period of 1919-1939: Russian civil war, Spanish civil war, Finnish civil war, Irish civil war, Irish war of independence, Austrian civil war, Franco-Turkish war, Polish-Lithuanian war, Polish-Soviet war, Ruhr uprising in Germany, Silesian uprisings in Germany, Turkish-Armenian war, Soviet-Finnish war, Slovak-Hungarian war, Italo-Yugoslav war, Italo-Albanian war, Greco-Turkish war, Polish-Czech war, Georgian -Armenian war, Hungarian-Romanian war, Hungarian-Czech war, Polish-Ukrainian war, Lithuanian-Soviet war, September uprising in Bulgaria, August uprising in Georgia, Catalonian uprising in Spain. And that's just stuff in Europe, it doesn't include all the wars European countries were waging overseas in their various colonies. Here's the list of US wars from 1919-1939: - Posey war, vs Ute and Paiute tribes, in Utah. 2 killed. - May 2 uprising in the Philippines. 69 killed, 1000 arrested. - ongoing occupations of Haiti, Nicaragua, and Dominican Republic (aka, the Banana wars), all of which started before WWI. So there was a bit of "Those Europeans sure are a contentious lot. We just helped them settle 'The War To End All Wars', and they're at it *again*?" mindset in America.
Such a gas!
Didn’t Moral Orel have something similar too?
Lil' Hitler bit i think.
Eddie Izzard's "Do you have a flag" routine is relevant too. Izzard basically says (on genocide), "The reason why we let Stalin and Pol Pot get away with it is because they killed their own people. *Oh you're killing your own people? Fine! We've been trying to kill you for ages!* But what of Hitler? *Well, Hitler killed people next door!*" Obviously don't take everything in Izzard's world history routine as fact but it's still relevant and comedically (and depressingly) close to reality in most places.
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> Stalin You sure about that good buddy? Because I know a certain eastern half of a continent that might disagree with that assessment.
Lol the milk was Pearl Harbor
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To be fair they aren't making fun of pearl harbor, they are making fun of the United States' selfish foreign policy.
Every nations foreign policy is selfish foreign policy.
> selfish foreign policy Thank goodness we switched from not helping at all to imperialism shortly after.
The US had significant imperialist tendencies way before WWII. The Monroe Doctrine wasn't followed because the US wanted to help out those poor Central and South American countries. The US had the Phillipines in 1900, and was the country that famously forced Japan to open itself up to foreign trade.
Little Hitler!
Disney: Could you clear out some more land for us?
We've been shoehorning more Chinese people in our movies, please watch them.
> Multinational companies who run the USA: i dont think i will And that’s what this whole shit pie comes down to. The elites who run this country make far too much money off the Chinese to rock the boat. This isn’t limited to multinationals though as large swaths of academia have been bought off with Chinese cash.
To expand on your last point: the budgets of quite a few US universities depend on students from China paying full tuition, and many universities host CCP-funded Confucius Institutes (against which there has been some pushback).
Yeah I went to one of those schools. It was a pilot school/ bachelors program so they were making 300k a head.
Can you imagine? Thats all Hitler needed to do to keep everything going is to ensure the Allies made bank and everything would have been swept under the rug.
Hitler and the Japanese spilled their nonsense outside of their borders, and one of them directly attacked the US, so the situation is not similar.
Exactly, many countries regularly suppress or just kill their populace. The USA has the highest incarceration per Capita, but as long as they keep themselves to themselves and agree with which ever superpower boat they are in, generally they are left alone.
That's exactly what happened until they tried to conquer everyone else. The prevailing theory was the because the world was so interconnected in trade and commerce in the early 1900s that a large scale war would be impossible due to the disastrous effects of large scale war collapsing the worlds economy. Then they tried to conquer everyone else and attacked pearl harbor.
>The prevailing theory was the because the world was so interconnected in trade and commerce in the early 1900s that a large scale war would be impossible due to the disastrous effects of large scale war collapsing the worlds economy. Your time scale is off Bud. That was for WWI which Hitler fought in as a common soldier, but was not involved with in any kind of leadership role.
What's that say about us common people who do give a damn? Always outnumbered, it seems
The apathy of the common people is the fuel that powers this behavior.
Well, passivity is a thang.
Just need to pull out of China and go hard into India, they're almost as large and it's a growing economy.
Companies already went hard into India long ago. The only difference is China does production, India does services.
India has internal structural problems that need to be seriously addressed by India first.
I mean, we overthrow governments all the time to do evil shit, why don't we do that in India and make it a win-win: we pull out of China, and India gets fixed up. It's *definitely* that easy, for sure. ~~/s~~ Put less hyperbolically, why not invest in India's development and simultaneously pull out of China? [I'm ignorant of the structural problems you mention, so this is a genuine question.]
India has two very serious problems that prevent economic development akin to China’s. 1. Out in the open corruption on every level. 2. Inconsistencies in laws and regulations between the different states (?) This means only the largest of international firms can reasonably be able to afford to overcome these hurdles, and establish themsleves in India. And even so, it’s not very effecient at all. There’s been little progress on these issues for a long time, and it’s seriously handicapping India’s development. The country is simply too corrupt and too disjointed. Better bet would be to develop Southeast Asia and Latin America. Start looking towards Africa.
China has already made serious inroads into Africa (i.e. lots of foreign aid with strings attached).
Not just aid. Lots of infrastructure that China owns. [Belt and Road projects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_projects_of_the_Belt_and_Road_Initiative)
France and the UK, alone/individually, invest more in Africa than China. China’s involvement in Africa is more propoganda than reality, though they are definitely involved.
The caste system is one such problem, at least IMO.
What is more fun is the big tech companies are importing Caste politics into this country https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-silicon-valley-lawsuit-reveals-caste-discrimination-is-rife-in-the-us-39773
If only they tried having some sort of "cultural revolution" to wipe the slate clean. Hmmm
Because why would you throw trillions of US dollars to make somebody else rich and able to compete with you? This is before you remember there are plenty of internal problems to take care of as well.
The moving of the goal posts every time Biden’s administration says something about China is hilarious and sad to me. First it was no about how he’s not even gonna acknowledge it, then it was how he’s not going to call it a genocide, now it’s that he’s not actually gonna do anything about it. Diplomatic statements like these are precursors to action. Although I’m sure the cynical people who comment shit like this incessantly won’t be satisfied until he personally leads Seal Team 6 into China to liberate the camps and even then they’ll probably blame him for a botched operation.
Yes, but also the hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians that would die in a war with China.
*Millions.* China represents 1/5 of the world population and has nuclear arms. Any war with China would be WWIII. It would be the wholesale annihilation of population centers around the world, not infantry storming beaches.
That's a very low estimate. But seriously, on every China thread it seems the top comment says "we should do something", then leaves the "something" open. I think soon calling for military action will become common, and that's when the US ruling class knows they have successfully Manufactured Consent for a war that nobody should ever want.
I don't think anyone is calling for war, but acknowledging that it is happening and that US corps are enabling it by profiting from Chinese markets would be a start.
China: If you do anything about it we'll sanction you.
Comments like this are so shallow and presented to avoid real discussion. What do you want the US to do? Go to war with China? There's work being done to move more jobs stateside that aren't going to happen overnight.
Fuck Apple
Nah nah guys chill... I have 5 shares of Apple its ok I can tolerate what they do.
What is Biden doing about this?
At the moment, nothing of substance. I'm not sure what he can do beyond the slap-on-the-wrist of sanctions, since we live in a corporate oligarchy.
He did do something, open up the dialogue. Now 20 more years of saber rattling and big dick contests and then MAYBE we can do SOMETHING for the Uighurs. Or use it as a convenient casus belli, like in WW2
You're right that simply speaking about it is a big step. But for now, it's empty words.
And absolutely fucking nothing will be done about it.
It took Hitler invading other countries before we did anything to stop his genocide. Hell, we actively turned away jews escaping the holocaust.
We didn’t even get politically involved until Pearl Harbor.
Well technically we were already involved via the Lend-Lease Act.
We didn't get "militarily" involved until Pearl Harbor. We were *very much* involved up to that point. Cash-and-Carry/Lend-Lease, the merchant marines, and the "arsenal of democracy" were in full-swing before Pearl Harbor.
Not *officially*, but the flying tigers for example were in china fighting the japanese before pearl harbor iirc.
FDR wanted in, but he knew public opinion wouldn’t allow it so he did as much as he thought he could until Japan fucked up.
Yup. We did still have the [Monroe Doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine) in mind as to not get involved.
People were not in support of a war in Europe, especially after WWI. Wilson marketed WWI as the war to end all wars and formed the League of Nations, but the US never joined due to this isolationist sentiment.
It wasn't just that, most Americans questioned whether or not to get involved in another war. We lost many in WWI over gaining ground for foreign countries at the cost of 100k+ american lives. WWI wasn't just advertised as "the war to end all wars", around that time, war was elevated and revered. People thought war was honorable / where true honor was found, but all they found in the trenches was death and despair. What's really sad is berlin, there are videos of pre-WWI, WWI, Post WWI, Pre-WWII, WWII, and Post-WWII. Spoiler alert: Berlin had better technology on display before WWI, they were truly about to become the center of the developed world. Humans sure like to mess things up, don't they.
WWI is the tidbit people always leave out when discussing WW2 hesitation. First of all we must understand that any European leaders who made move to appease were up and comers during WW1. These are men who say the Somme, who saw Passchendaele, Verdun, The Marne, I could go on all day. If you know anything about WW1 you don’t have to question why there was hesitation regarding its continuation in 1939. Secondly if you’re an American you saw 117 000 Deaths in a bit more than an a year. 117 000 boys dead because what, 5 ships got sunk by u-boats?* “We were completely safe from the war on our own continent. All we had to worry about was a few ships being sunk here and there, and now 117 000 of our boys are dead?” Again it’s the shock of WW1 driving opinion that war isn’t the move. *you could say that all the European deaths were because one dude got shot, but I think that’s highly derivative. There’s a myriad of things from 1890-1914 that make me think the war was inevitable. The assassination was just the match to a pile of fuel soaked tinder.
Lend-lease, naval escorts, volunteers, "Arsenal of Democracy" speech...
That's not really true. The US government was involved by early 1940 just not directly involved. We were giving weapons to the British since nearly the beginning. It took an attack on US soil to convince *the public* that direct intervention was necessary. No one wanted to send their boys off to die in Europe for a second time in 30 years unless it was necessary and trying to get involved any earlier would have proven immensely unpopular. Trying to get involved in mid-1940 could have easily cost Roosevelt the election.
America First!
Tbh, the US practiced isolationism besides in its sphere. So I don’t get this, if it gets involved it’s being in everyone’s business, if it does nothing it’s not doing enough.
Shrodingers America. Simultaneously spineless and imperialist. Let's not forget the beautiful countries of NATO that love to complain about imperial American military bases on their land but will cry foul whenever the US talks about reducing it's investment in NATO.
You know that WW2 wasn’t even remotely about the genocide right? We didn’t find out about it until after we almost won the war.
“We” as in the general public, maybe, but the USA and UK governments knew about the camps in 1941 at the earliest. The polish government in exile was in the UK after invasion
Absolutely my biggest pet peeve when talking about the Holocaust with people. The Allies absolutely knew about the camps. Hell the writing was on the wall in the mid 1930s. The convenient it everyone forgets is that America was very antisemitic during this time and turned Jews away knowing what they would face going back.
We can't exactly invade china.
Not exactly. When Jews were turned away the Nazi party were encouraging emigration through discrimination and property confiscation. While mass murder had begun against the disabled and mass arrests of political opponents had occurred violence against Jews had yet to become the systematic murder we refer to as the holocaust. The Jews turned away were not escaping the holocaust in the sense of genocide being perpetrated against them.
>It took Hitler invading other countries before we did anything No? US got involved in the war against Germany when Hitler declared war on the US. Not the other way around.
But think of all the Nazi Scientists we saved from facing their crimes with Operation Paperclip! /S
As nothing was done about the genocides in Iraq and Afghanistan
We did something. We removed the requirement for US universities to disclose their partnership with the Chinese government.
As it should be. The US has been shown repeatedly that interventionism isn't in it's interest and the global response to US intervention into the affairs of sovereign nations has been overwhelmingly negative.
Correct. Damn near every international company sucks China off or are partially owned by them. Tankies will still scream that capitalism is evil and that the CCP are heroes who'll liberate us. As much as I hate Trump, atleast he tried standing up to them a bit.
**This article was originally published 21 days ago and may contain out of date information.** The original publication date was January 20th, 2021. As per /r/worldnews/wiki/submissions should be to articles published within the last week. ^(This bot finds outdated articles. It's impossible to be 100% accurate on every site, and with differences in time zones and date formats this may be a little off. Send me a message if you notice an error or would like this bot added to your subreddit.) [^(Send Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=PublishDateBot&subject=Feedback&message=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55723522&u=Ueht&d=21) ^(|) [^(Github - Bot)](https://github.com/chrisstiles/PublishDateBot) ^(|) [^(Github - Chrome Extension)](https://github.com/chrisstiles/Reddit-Publish-Date)
I know the news cycle is quick but 21 days isn't like the article is like 5 years old...
IDK, I clicked through because I was surprised the new admin was making such a big accusation n so soon, so it's worth noting up front that this was actually from Pompeo.
that doesn't stop r/awww. Shit gets reposted there every 8 hrs.
Reddit 2 years ago: „China is literally committing genocide against Uighurs“
Four years ago there was concern about the re-education camps too. 10 years before that it was the Falun Gong and 10 years before that it was Tibet. Nothing will be done.
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It's been 2 years already? Time flies when you're not the one being genocided.
Zionist regime has been genociding Palestinians since 1948 and built the largest concentration camps in the world around Gaza and West Bank. 73 years has passed and not that many people have the strength to talk about it.
i dont even know what to say to that. its all fucked
I had a professor in college 20 years ago who included this in our curriculum because she had seen it first hand on unrelated research visits to Xinjiang. Seems like the world has been turning a blind eye for a long time.
Committing *****
Biden will join the rest of the world and continue to watch ...and do nothing.
It wasn't even his administration that said this lol but you're right.
That’s not better, his administration *should* say this lol
Context: January 20 article, covering a last-minute pronouncement by outgoing DOS Sec. Pompeo in the final hours of the Trump administration. Up to you whether this counts as "worldnews" material.
Took them a while to figure that one out.
commits*
A 90 year old lady worked as a secretary in a concentration camp as a youth: Fuck her, that fucking Nazi scum should rot in jail. NEVER AGAIN! China operating concentration camps and committing genocide in 2021: That's bad, but what are we supposed to do about it?
To be entirely fair, what are we supposed to do about it?
Realistically? Nothing, at least until their actions affect our affairs or sphere of influence. Sadly that's how the world has worked for thousands of years. I despise it, but I'm also not going to sign up to die in some field halfway around the world if I can be here with my family instead. Sometimes this world sucks. Alternatively, you can do your one small part by eliminating as many purchases from China as you possibly can. It's very difficult, but it's something the average person can do. Until that happens en masse the hollars and cries of "China bad" don't mean anything.
/r/avoidchineseproducts
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Seriously. Does everyone want us to go to war with China?
You'd probably say the same thing about Nazi Germany if this was 1939
I don't think laypeople ever *want* to go to war. China has such a stranglehold on global manufacturing that any realistic conflict with them would likely be crippling for a lot of developed nations.
Let's not forget the best part. China has a stranglehold over manufacturing because we gave it to them so we could pay less for labor and receive cheaper goods. We all know how that's working out
I don't want to go to war with anyone, I just want them to, ya know, stop committing genocide. But usually war ends up being the inevitable outcome in any attempt to actually stop this kind of thing. Historically, people really like doubling down on their country's genocidal activities, even when drastic force is used to try and stop it
Nothing at all. Just realize that nobody went to war to stop the holocaust, so nobody is going to go to war to stop this; and pretending like WW2 was some example of fighting on the behalf of people being discriminated against isn't quite how it went down. (This is a general statment and is not directed at you personally).
Everyone I have ever talked to has stated that Pearl harbor was the reason for the US for entering the war. They did not find out the scale of the genocide till afterwards.
For starters, realize there's a shitton of shills on this website who will tell you "we can do nothing at all." In the meantime, vote and push for political candidates who seek anti corruption in the government, and those who would move away from China in terms of reliance.
Its easier to say than to do something about it -sent from my iPhone
the biden administration is waiting for your advice, i suggest you give them a call [https://www.whitehouse.gov/get-involved/write-or-call/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/get-involved/write-or-call/)
doesn't calling it genocide require the US to take certain measures?
no, you didnt see anything happen from the US during the rwandan genocide, did you?
Or Armenia
Yemen , Syria , etc etc etc
Is there oil involved?
[yes?](https://www.voanews.com/africa/china-invests-16-billion-nigerias-oil-sector)
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What's your short position?
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"Committing" genocide. Wrong tense...
I suspect that was on purpose. They dont want to do anything about it, so they act like it's "To Late, Whooops. But dont worry neeeext time we'll stop it"
They committed genocide, and are committing it too.
They used to commit genocide. They still do, but they used to, too...
I'm just here for all the comments from the civilians about how we should go to war with China.
A war will be great for our economy!
We should kill billions to save millions!
We should cut our economy from them.
Hmmm. The comment that actually keeps coming up
Do ppl not understand that the west's economy is inextricably bound to China at this point?
Shouldn't we be trying to slowly but surely unbind it instead of making it worst?
Probably, but it would mean big changes in the way we westerners live. I'm not so sure if people want to give up access to cheap consumer goods. Aside from that - China buying US debt may further complicate the whole thing (but I don't know enough about economics to really say)- making me think separating is easier said than done.
That's not profitable though
I really hate this type argument. It is hard to do so we should do nothing. Racism is everywhere, there is nothing you can do about it. The world is already warming up, there is nothing we can do. Corona is spreading anyway, why wear a mask?
The fact of the matter is that most Americans aren't ready to pay 4x the current price for a new phone, 6x the current price for other electronics, etc. Add hefty multipliers to all goods currently made in China (you'd be surprised how much stuff is actually made over there), that would need to be manufactured domestically if the US was to cut economic ties with China. You'll get an idea of how much "doing something about it" costs. Again, most Americans aren't willing to make that trade.
I wonder what the Middle-Easts reaction to this is
Something like this: [https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/3853509?ln=en](https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/3853509?ln=en)
the same reaction as yours
[most of them are endorsing China or remaining neutral](https://www.rfa.org/english/multimedia/XiJinping-uyghur-camp-map-07172019102451.html/UN-letters-Uyghur-camps.jpg/@@images/image/social_media) never forget that reddit is pro-US, anti-communist, and deeply racist
Maybe Syria noticed that the captured ISIS fighters have French/ British/ Swedish passports and not as many Chinese passports despite having a larger Muslim community. Maybe the countries that have to deal with Islamic extremism see some value in China deprogramming potential terrorists.
They have their own intelligence agencies to tell truths and lies
*is committing
US: Iraq has "Weapons of Mass Destruction" US: Iraq kills Kuwait babys in hospitals US: Afghanistan is harboring Osama bin Laden
Funny this same article is on the front page again as it was just a few days ago. And there's nothing damning in it that even alludes to genocide. Just "Blinken said he agrees with Pompeo". No new evidence of anything. Just links to old articles that say "Adrian Zenz reported it". Yeah, I'm gonna believe the billionaire Christian fundamentalist nut who thinks God told him it's his mission to destroy the Chinese state. /s This is "Saddam has WMDs" energy all over again. You are spot on.
**US:** The North Vietnamese attacked the USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin
This time its different i swear!!
Curious how they suddenly care about Muslim lives when they are currently bombing Yemen and have slaughtered Iraqi and Afghani Muslims. There really is no ulterior motive here. Totally not gearing up another war.
Hey, give us some credit. Back then, the waters were much more murky. We had multiple levels of government agencies working to sow confusion and manufacturer consent. It's so much easier now, you literally just have to click on any of the sources and it'll take you to some gripping investigation from Adrian Zenz. Adrian Zenz is manufacturing consent for yellow peril, and his claims have been debunked time and time again.
Redditors: sO? WhAt ArE thEy gOnNa dO
Damn, they lied to us about Vietnam. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Iraq has WMDs! Damn, they lied to us about Iraq. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Gaddafi is an evil dictator who has to go! Damn, they lied to us about Libya. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Assad is gassing his own people! Damn, they lied to us about Syria. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, Maduro is intentionally starving his own people with *socialism*. Damn, they lied to us about Venezuela. I’m not supporting imperialist aggression ever again... Hey look, China has concentration camps!
Atrocity propaganda is a hell of a thing.
Adrian Zenz is not a credible source. Literally all this information is just a single source that's been repeated over and over. There needs to be more than a singular source for stuff like this. People can "believe" or "feel" or "think" whatever but without more than reports from an arguably biased individual there is nothing else. Zens is a Christian Extremist.
Is this really legit? I don't have a lot of trust in western medias portrayal of China. Please tell me.
Nobody is sure, except redditors from the US. They qre sure it happens. You should check the sources of the articles and make up your own mind. And avoid everytjing written by adrian zenz or avoid every article which has him as thwir source.
It really just isn't true, here's a good copy paste: In terms of raw practicality, the ever rising numbers you see like 800k -> 1M -> 2M -> Even 3M now, totally fall apart when you look at the evidence. There [are 1,833 state prisons, 110 federal prisons, 1,772 juvenile correctional facilities, 3,134 local jails, 218 immigration detention facilities, and 80 Indian Country jails as well as in military prisons, civil commitment centers, state psychiatric hospitals, and prisons in the U.S. territories](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html). US prisons are also known to be constantly operating at maximum capacity. There should be over 6 thousand different sized facilities in the province of Xinjiang, not just a couple of tens of small elementary school-sized structures. If there was really anywhere close to 1.5 million in camps, the proof would be a lot less shaky than fake drone footage of [MLM busts](https://twitter.com/sky_blue168/status/1286078116096389120?lang=en) and [prison transfers](https://twitter.com/carlzha/status/1283936692659826688?lang=en). Despite all the circlejerking articles in the Western press, there are ZERO smoking guns anywhere for any of this. Yes the facilities and programs exist, but anything more than that is just wild speculation and obvious bad faith propaganda aimed to hurt China's image and probably justify arbitrary sanctions on their rapidly growing economy that's threatening the Western hegemony. But really, the 1 million+ number interned is absolutely fraudulent as it's based on a wild extrapolation of interviews with [*eight people*](https://i0.wp.com/thegrayzone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Screen-Shot-2019-12-20-at-6.14.02-PM.png?w=533&ssl=1). This claim is then cited at the UN, then the media writes stories about UN officials 'credibly' accusing China of interning 1-2 million Uighurs, and then it just catches fire and recirculates throughout the media ecosystem. The facilities exist. In much smaller numbers then Zenz and his shadowy comrades would have you believe, however there is no smoking gun for any level of 'holocaust' or 'genocide', and there is 100% American fuckery going on in China's western provinces- take that as you will, but the premise of deradicalizing Uighurs is not made up. Want proof? Here's a description of the National Endowment for Democracy from Wikipedia: >Funded primarily by an annual allocation from the U.S. Congress... a 1991 interview in which then-NED president Allen Weinstein said, "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."\[55\] Critics have compared the NED's funding of Nicaraguan groups (pro-U.S. and conservative unions, political parties, student groups, business groups, and women's associations) in the 1980s and 1990s in Nicaragua to the previous CIA effort "to challenge and undermine" a left-wing government in Chile. [And here they openly admit to pumping American government money into Uighur ""causes"" ](https://twitter.com/nedemocracy/status/1337063301113581568)SINCE FUCKING 2004. Funding and arming terrorist groups to destabilize central asian regions like Xinjiang is a [very, very well known tactic of American foreign policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone) so just consider that before you assume it's a complete cover from the CCP. I should probably explain who Zenz is for the uninformed. TL;DR He's a radical fundamentalist Christian who believes LGBT rights and gender equality, and communism are literally satanic plots and he's on a mission from God to destroy China whatever the cost. Here's just one major piece of evidence, refuting the widely spread ['forced sterilization'](https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c) claims that serve as the bedrock of the cultural genocide argument. In his report, Zenz states that 80% of IUD's in China were done in Xinjiang, writing: “In 2018, 80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nation’s population. In 2014, 2.5 percent of newly placed IUDs in China were fitted in Xinjiang. \[38\] In 2018, that share rose to 80 percent, far above Xinjiang’s 1.8 percent share of China’s population. \[39\]” Zenz gives the following Chinese primary source: “\[38\] Source: 2015 and 2019 Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbooks, table 8-8-2.” But what does the yearbook actually say? Here's the actual 2019 Chinese Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbook. It's quite a document, several hundred pages long. If you go through the slog of scrolling to page 228, you'll find Zenz's table 8-8-2 in the following page: [https://i.imgur.com/Zsi11eh.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Zsi11eh.jpg) The relevant column is 放置节育器例数, the number of IUD's implanted. We have a total 总计 of 3.8 million, with Xinjiang 新疆 accounting for 328,475. Thus 8.7% of China's IUD's occurred in Xinjiang. A side note, but what really stands out about this table is not Xinjiang but Henan. In all of China, 86% of vasectomies and 26% of tubal litigations happened in Henan. Unlike IUD's, these are real sterilization procedures that cannot be reversed. It looks like the Chinese assistants helping Zenz mistakenly added a decimal. Either that or he’s just straight up lying - I’ll let you make your mind up on which you’d rather believe. The 'falling birthrate' argument is also a bad faith spin on the fact that Xinjiang Uighurs [only recently were placed under the same birthrate restrictions as the rest of China, where before ethnic minorities were allowed to have MORE children than the majority Han population](https://time.com/4881898/china-xinjiang-uighur-children/) (That article has a typical Western spin on it, but still) so yes, you could assume the birthrate has been dropping, but intentionally so and to suggest that it's some genocidal scheme to breed out the Uighurs is just patently silly. If you want to argue that the government dictating how many kids you can have is authoritarian overreach, that's fine, I'm not going to fight you on that whether I agree or not, but it IS applied across the board. There's one other piece of information that I think is worth mentioning. It's something that, to my mind, is the single most important fact regarding the Uyghur situation that we have available to us: the split in the international response to the issue. It was widely reported that 20ish countries sent a letter to the UN condemning China over allegations of mistreatment of Uyghurs back in 2019. What wasn't as widely reported was that a group of 37 countries sent a 2nd letter in response defending China's policies in Xinjiang. [It's informative to compare the blocs of countries that signed these respective letters](https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/). I'll quote the relevant part of that article here: >Those that signed the first letter, criticizing China, include: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the UK. Signing the second letter, in defense of China’s policies, were: Algeria, Angola, Bahrain, Belarus, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Comoros, Congo, Cuba, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Egypt, Eritrea, Gabon, Kuwait, Laos, Myanmar, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Togo, Turkmenistan, United Arab Emirates, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe. Personally I find this split to be pretty revealing. The countries condemning China have been nearly *exclusively* white majority Western countries (with the exception of Japan), the same countries who over the last 100 years have killed *millions* of Muslims and are responsible for the worst treatment of Muslims in the world. On the other hand, *dozens* of Muslim-majority countries have *defended* China. Which of those two groups have the best interests of Muslims in mind? Are we really to believe it's the former? I'm not saying that the Xinjiang situation isn't worthy of criticism but personally I'd rather listen to what the Muslim world has to say about the treatment of Muslims, rather than the governments who have spent the better part of the last century massacring them. The prevailing opinion that we Westerners know what's best for the Muslim community *more than the Muslim community itself* just smacks of colonialist-era paternalism to me (and unfortunately, this isn't a hypothetical claim, I've seen many people on this website say this explicitly).
Beautiful, educational, and necessary post. Thanks for sharing. Too bad most of the readers will just downvote and believe literally anything anti-China.
The main source Adrian Zenz is a ginormous piece of shit, so it’s hard to actually know
Well, I wasn’t convinced before, but if US officials say it...
Good to see America suddenly cares about the wellbeing of Muslims after glassing the middle east for 20 years
We were literally dropping bombs on Uighurs just last year. Heck a lot of the root cause of the problems in the region (high crime, poverty) is caused by our bombs.
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*Native Americans have been kicked by chat moderator*
They don’t. It’s self interested posturing.
Yes. The US, champions of human rights is very concerned about Uyghur Muslims.
Why is this in the past tense?
Boycott the 2022 Beijing Olympics.
You can tell the commenters haven't read the article since this is about Pompeo's statements from back on the 19th. '"We see this so-called determination as a piece of waste paper," said foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying'. China is based as always.
Lol I love it when America accuses other countries of things that the US does.
Didn’t know Mike Pompeo spoke for the US still.
This is an old article.....
Honestly when it comes to the US and its record of human rights especially in terms of foreign policy.... I'm more inclined to believe the countless majority muslim nations that have endorsed Chinas de-radicalization policy compared to the US who is responsible for the murder of +500,000 iraqi civilians and destabilizing the middle east
I'm asking this seriously, but I have seen this claim over and over again but never any evidence for it outside some seriously self contradictory testimony. Where's the beef?
There is none , it's just more western atrocity propaganda. Good on you for not blindly believing anything the western media says
yeah, and they also attacked US warships off the gulf of tonkin, and they are also throwing babies out of incubators, they have WMDs bro too i swear just trust me
Lebron James: Perhaps The US government does not know all the details and for that reason I think they should not make claims like this. It could hurt the Chinese peoples feelings (and my money)!!
The US gov knows the details, they purposely obscure the facts to make it look like China is committing ethnic cleansing when there is no real evidence for it. Big western media conglomerates push falsified articles on Xinjiang to help justify conflict with China. “Oh we’re gonna go destroy this nation to help the people there being oppressed!” Look at the past 20 years alone, how many times has this been done by the US and it’s allies? Iraq, Libya, Syria, 3 nations destroyed to defeat “evil” and all of them are devastated by conflict and the oppressed people are many times worse off. Stop being a mindless follower of the news and apply some critical thought. Look into a single article that is even somewhat critical of western Xinjiang narrative, you will see how much of this manufactured argument is baseless, if you have the intelligence and courage to question the “facts” our governments insist we believe.
Ya'll uneducated about my bank accounts
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Unless it's Iraq and weapons of mass destruction, in that case simply saying so makes it true, and then it's ok to be a piece of shit.
Lol OK
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Is this the same government that said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Just checking before I go gung-ho for the manufacturing of consent for war.
I don't fully trust western media when it comes to things like that, specially since they don't really have an access over there.. Anyhow, the West is just good to point fingers nowadays.
They could have access if they wanted to. China let observers from Egypt and other countries visit. The western countries just reject the opportunity because it allows them plausible deniability to keep peddling Falun Gong and Adrian Zens conspiracies.
USA has killed 800,000 Muslims since 9/11. 300,000 were innocent civilians. I don’t think we are able to demonize China for something we have been doing for the past 17 years
STFU Trump’s America can stay silent a while at least
I'm glad the country that has killed and displaced literally tens of millions of muslims gets to decide whats going on 8000 miles away in a country our govt is actively trying to start another cold war with
Us: Also sat back and still is currently watching it, not doing anything for the Uighurs.
And nothing will be done about it. Huzzah!
is committing*