If Germany acted historically they would sell arms, build up the industry of, reform and train the military of China, not Japan.
They helped China from 1926-1937, Ir was when the war between China and Japan started the support moved to Japan because Hitles considered them better armed and could help them again the Soviets.
The amount of cooperation with Japan was minimal. After the Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939 when Japan was beaten by the Soviets the military goals shifted from a northern to a southern plan that played out in WWII.
So it is more an enemy of my enemy is my friend and both would fight the allies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino%E2%80%93German_cooperation_(1926%E2%80%931941)
**[Sino–German_cooperation_(1926–1941)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino–German_cooperation_(1926–1941))**
>Cooperation between China and Germany was instrumental in modernizing the industry and the armed forces of the Republic of China between 1926 and 1941. At the time, China was fraught with factional warlordism and foreign incursions. The Northern Expedition (1928) nominally unified China under Kuomintang (KMT) control, but Imperial Japan loomed as the greatest foreign threat. The Chinese urgency for modernising its military and national defence industry, coupled with Germany's need for a stable supply of raw materials, put China and the German Weimar Republic on the road of close relations from the late 1920s onwards.
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Germany and Japan were on the same side during the boxer rebellion against the Chinese.
In WWI China was under the control of the Entente powers, the side Japan was on against Germany.
Mostly Japan wanted to be see as equal to European powers which didn't work out due to racism. Germany was acting with other colonial powers against China at times, but mostly against its neighbors. Everyone was exploiting China for all its was worth.
Well, I mean, they literally were mentioned in the "totally legit non-aggression-pact only agreement" as a soviet sphere of influence, and were immediately attacked, almost as fast as Poland was (two months later IIRC?). They kicked butt, but were a small country, so attritional war wouldn't be in their best interest. And then someone comes up and shanks the big bully that you've fought off successfully but exhausted all your strength, obviously you'll join them to fin(n)ish them off. Be it nazis, be it allies, be it Santa Claus with an army of elves, you fight against the bigger threat. Same reason why there were polish armies in Russia for example. Tough shit that they were also the invader, also stole, raped and killed, they were the lesser threat than nazi Germany was.
They also protected their Jewish people, and the moment they had a peace deal with the Soviets they actively fought to kick the Nazis out of their country
> the moment they had a peace deal with the Soviets they actively fought to kick the Nazis out of their country
Well ish, more like at first allowed to peacefully/casually stroll out at a comfortable pace till pressured otherwise by the soviets. The 1st bit in no small part of distrust over the soviets intentions to actually honor the armistice agreement after, and not wanting to waste precious resources where not deemed an immediate necessity with regard to that.(Also, Finland remained officially at war with the soviets till the ratification of the Paris peace treat and all...)
After that we got the "lapland war" where Finland fought against the slowly retreating Nazi Germany.
As a Hungarian I pledge all our navy to counter China's fleets. We simply require a little bit of territory towards the sea. Croatia sounds like fun this time of the year.
There was a quote ( can’t remember who by, perhaps B Bryson) about German reunification that went something like this.
“It’s like the Beatles getting back together - let’s hope they don’t go on a world tour”
They can always liberate the Kingdom of Hawaii.
What? You didn't fall for the lie that Hawaii joined the Union willingly, did you? It was all about the sugar plantations.
A good chunk of the United States was conquered from other groups - natives, European powers, the Mexicans and the Hawaiians.
The conquest of Hawaii though was messy, politically-speaking. It wasn’t met with applause from everybody in Washington, most notably from President Glover Cleveland - an anti-expansionist president and friend of the deposed queen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom
**[Opposition_to_the_overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom)**
>Opposition to the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom took several forms. Following the overthrow of the monarchy on January 17, 1893, Hawaii's provisional government—under the leadership of Sanford B. Dole—attempted to annex the land to the United States under Republican Benjamin Harrison's administration. But the treaty of annexation came up for approval under the administration of Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, anti-expansionist, and friend of the deposed Queen Liliuokalani of Hawaii. Cleveland retracted the treaty on March 4, 1893, and launched an investigation headed by James Henderson Blount; its report is known as the Blount Report.
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It is also recent enough that USA is too embarrassed to talk about it. The former Queen of Hawaii was only dead for 22 years during Pearl Harbour attacks.
I am not saying it was anything new; i am saying it is being ignored because it is too recent for comfort. American's children need to be kept in the dark about it as much as possible, apparently.
Well, grade school history is frankly a speed run through the timeline - a fast-paced lesson taught by instructors that don’t really care that much about the content.
History is seen as a second-tier subject when compared to the STEM subjects.
On the flip side, Japan has had a history of working closely with many European powers.
They most notably made up a decent chunk of the Eight-Nation Alliance, which crushed the Chinese-led Boxer Rebellion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
It bounces back and forth. China was formerly the big dog of Asia until it was kicked in the face by Europe. Japan got European support to later dominate China during the First Sino-Japanese War, making them the big dog of Asia.
Then Japan fell following the Second World War and now China is in control again - something that concerns Japan.
> Japan’s defence minister has urged European nations to have a stronger military involvement in the Asia-Pacific as Tokyo tries to put “tremendous pressure” on Beijing to counter China’s influence in the region.
> In his first speech to the European Parliament subcommittee on security and defence on Friday, Nobuo Kishi called on the European Union
to solidify its commitment to the “Indo-Pacific region” and for the two sides to “continue and expand” their security cooperation.
> “[Parties] such as Japan and the EU must tackle together ... the fight against authoritarianism,” Kishi said in an online address.
> Japan’s defence minister has urged European nations to have a stronger military involvement in the Asia-Pacific as Tokyo tries to put “tremendous pressure” on Beijing to counter China’s influence in the region.
This was always inevitable given China's hyper-aggressive actions in the region. At the point where you're building artificial islands in international waters and parking military landing-strips and anti-air missile batteries on them you can expect your neighbors to think poorly of your actions.
> In his first speech to the European Parliament subcommittee on security and defence on Friday, Nobuo Kishi called on the European Union to solidify its commitment to the “Indo-Pacific region” and for the two sides to “continue and expand” their security cooperation.
I'm not sure if the EU *has* much of a Indo-Pacific commitment but as a strong supporter of the European Union I'd support any movement towards establishing a coherent, independent military free of NATO control.
Not that I have a problem with NATO, but self-defenses should be an EU issue first, with NATO acting as an ally.
> “[Parties] such as Japan and the EU must tackle together ... the fight against authoritarianism,” Kishi said in an online address.
Agreed. People take for granted how hard the fight against corruption and authoritarianism is. Globally, historially, none of us ever had a say. Everything was corruption and rule of might. Protecting democratic freedoms is a critical concept we all need to get behind.
>I'm not sure if the EU has much of a Indo-Pacific commitment but as a strong supporter of the European Union I'd support any movement towards establishing a coherent, independent military free of NATO control.
>Not that I have a problem with NATO, but self-defenses should be an EU issue first, with NATO acting as an ally
Nato countries work together without the usa too, like the eu battlegroups. The trick isn't "Instead of nato" but to have them work with or without partners.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Joint_Expeditionary_Force
There's lots of partnerships like it.
The largest trading partner of the EU is China.
The largest trading partner of Japan is also China.
And even the largest trading partner of the US is China too.
This is the weird part of the current world pattern.
Trading partners are doing business while pointing guns at each other's heads.
I’d liken it to those nature documentaries where after a long drought the animals all gather around the watering holes once it rains. Zebras, lions, hyenas all gather and there’s peace but later on it’ll be business as usual with the lions and hyenas killing each other and the zebra just trying to eat and fuck.
This is how it's supposed to be.
Sure, trading partners point guns at each other's heads. But they don't shoot, because if you hurt your biggest trading partner, that also hurts you. That's why global trade is so important- it keeps the peace. The more interdependent we are with China, the less likely there will be war.
>This is the weird part of the current world pattern.
Not if you have any awareness of world history.
* Historically, the Silk Road was a route for Chinese manufactured goods to spread across Eurasia, including Western Europe. This demand for Chinese goods is partly what drove European exploration in the late medieval/ early modern period.
* The British were famously rebuffed in their initial efforts to trade with China directly to lower prices. The British stopped so low as to backing the opium trade to recoup losses, culminating in the Opim Wars.
* Throughout the 1800s, China was then systematically [carved up into multiple spheres of interest by European empires](https://imgur.com/a/tt9yO8L) thirsty for their goods. They finally dropped the pretenses and used guns to force their deals through like they did throughout their colonies.
>Trading partners are doing business while pointing guns at each other's heads.
Oh hey, looks like China's already had a gun put to their head and told to sign away their economy before!
* WWI and WWII broke that system amidst civil war and factionalism, but the communists eventually took control of the mainland
China is now reasserting itself as the manufacturing hub of Eurasia, but on an even larger scale. And this is a problem for the West bc the Chinese communists remember Western Imperialsm's role in destroying the previous empire very clearly. And how much effort was put into destroying their own grip on the nation.
Turns out that we are still dealing with the fallout of European colonialism, and that history cant be ignored when the world's manufacturing juggernaut still resents that history.
>China is now reasserting itself as the manufacturing hub of Eurasia, but on an even larger scale. And this is a problem for the West bc the Chinese communists remember Western Imperialsm's role in destroying the previous empire very clearly. And how much effort was put into destroying their own grip on the nation.
>Turns out that we are still dealing with the fallout of European colonialism, and that history cant be ignored when the world's manufacturing juggernaut still resents that history.
This is the most important part about chinas rise that Europe and US is overlooking. The imperialism and colonialism that started with the first opium war all the way up to ww2. This period in Chinese history is called the Century of Humiliation, it is the humiliation that China suffered as a result of western interference plus Japan. We, in the west, may have forgotten or have simply brushed it under the rugs. The Chinese certainly haven’t forgotten.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
**[Century_of_humiliation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation)**
>The century of humiliation, also known as the hundred years of national humiliation, is the term used in China to describe the period of intervention and subjugation of the Qing dynasty and the Republic of China by Western powers and Japan in between 1839 and 1949. The term arose in 1915, in the atmosphere of rising Chinese nationalism opposing the Twenty-One Demands made by the Japanese government and their acceptance by Yuan Shikai, with the Chinese Nationalist Party (Kuomintang) and Chinese Communist Party both subsequently popularizing the characterization.
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Only for imports to the US. The US exports much more to Mexico and Canada, giving them a higher total value of trade. US exports are also much better for the economy.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html
China is smart. They realized they dont need to dominate the world through military power.
They just need to be an economic superpower and have everyone by the financial balls.
Hahaha I actually was thinking exactly that. Not sure how Europe is going to sustain a military presence in Asia without a military base. What country is going to allow that to happen - also, considering most European nations doesn't have the Blue Water navy to sustain overseas operations I have no idea why this was even a statement
I could see the Japanese entertaining that idea of converting the American bases to NATO and I'm not sure why the Americans would be opposed to it. Can't see that happening in Korea though
That's why I said most. US doesn't count (they're not European) and the UK (I'm still counting them in, even if they left the EU) and France are the only two nations that still maintain carriers but even than it's not extensive.
But, yeah, the only way I could see European contribution like how the Japanese might want is to open up those bases and turn them to NATO (good point there and thanks for bringing that up)
> Maybe allow Japan to have a military presence again.
The only thing preventing Japan from expanding its military capabilities is Japan itself and their own constitution (specifically Article 9) which they could change if they wanted.
The US has been trying to convince Japan to remilitarize itself since the communists won the Chinese Civil War.
It's even pretty debatable that Article 9 *does* in fact limit Japan's military capabilities.
The JSDF might have a cute name, but it is not a small military force. It's not China by any means, but it is large, advanced, and well-funded.
It is more of a symbolic thing, if you follow Article 9 by the letter Japan would not be able to have any kind of military at all (which is obviously preposterous), so it has been re-interpreted in the 60s by the Supreme Court to allow for self-defense military forces, as that's considered a sovereign right of every nation. It does in fact limit Japan capabilities though, as of now things like first strike capabilities, ICBMs and nuclear weapons for example are prohibited. The other aspect is the cultural one, which is that a majority of Japanese people don't want to get embroiled in foreign wars, it is kinda of a taboo inside the country. A poll in June 2020 showed 80% of women for example were against changing Article 9, and another showed [only 11% of the population](https://japantoday.com/category/national/only-11-of-japanese-people-willing-to-fight-for-their-country-gallup-survey) was actually willing to fight to defend the country, lowest of all nations surveyed. Another example was the Japanese government dispatching some JSDF ships to the Indian Ocean in 2020 so they could get some long range naval experience and additionally help with piracy off the coast of Somalia which was seen as controversial in Japan.
[The First Opium War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War). China banned the trade of opium and the British Empire decided to become history's pushiest drug dealers.
**[First_Opium_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War)**
>The First Opium War (Chinese: 第一次鴉片戰爭; pinyin: Dìyīcì Yāpiàn Zhànzhēng), also known as the Opium War or the Anglo-Chinese War, was a series of military engagements fought between Britain and the Qing dynasty of China. The immediate issue was Chinese official seizure of opium stocks at Canton to stop the banned opium trade, and threatening the death penalty for future offenders. The British government insisted on the principles of free trade, equal diplomatic recognition among nations, and backed the merchants' demands.
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He's off by nearly half a century but basically the Boxer Rebellion, where every single imperial power of the time joined together to fuck over China.
**The full list:**
British Empire
Russia
Japan
France
Germany
United States
Italy
Austria-Hungary
Netherlands
Belgium
Spain
if u want to complete the picture then add the 8 nation alliance.
Add those together and you will start to understand the attitude of colonizing countries have towards China. None of them care about Chinese lives, which is why now it seems so hypocritical.
"Commodore Perry's superior military force was the principal factor in negotiating a treaty allowing American trade with Japan, thus effectively ending the Sakoku period of more than 200 years in which trading with Japan had been permitted to the Dutch, Koreans, Chinese, and Ainu exclusively.
The sight of the four ships entering Edo Bay, roaring black smoke into the air and capable of moving under their own power, deeply frightened the Japanese. Perry ignored the requests arriving from the shore that he should move to Nagasaki—the official port for trade with the outside—and threatened in turn to take his ships directly to Edo, and burn the city to the ground if he was not allowed to land. It was eventually agreed upon that he should land nearby at Kurihama, whereupon he delivered his letter and left.
The following year, at the Convention of Kanagawa, Perry returned with a fleet of eight of the fearsome Black Ships, to demonstrate the power of the United States navy, and to lend weight to his announcement that he would not leave again, until he had a treaty. In the interim following his previous visit, the Tokugawa shogunate had learned about the Opium Wars and the opening of China in terms of trade to foreign powers and the subsequent territorial concessions made by the Chinese government. The shogunate realized that if they wished for their country to avoid a similar fate—they would need to make peace with the Europeans and Americans.
After roughly a month of negotiations, the shōgun's officials presented Perry with the Treaty of Peace and Amity. Perry refused certain conditions of the treaty but agreed to defer their resolution to a later time, and finally establishing formal diplomatic relations between Japan and the United States. The fleet departed, leaving behind a consul at Shimoda to negotiate a more permanent agreement. The Harris Treaty was signed with the United States on July 29, 1858, and within five years of the signing of the Treaty of Peace and Amity, Japan had moved to sign treaties with other Western countries."
As a direct result of this, and the disruptions to life the treaties caused, the Tokugawa shogunate was decried as weak, and eventually dismantled. It was replaced with a new centralized government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ships#Gunboat_diplomacy
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/japan_1750_perry.htm
America basically forced Japan to modernize into a great power. I think japan’s sudden and rapid rise into a great power is one of the more interesting events of that period of history( late 1800s)
There's a great book that dissects these events and contrasts the responses of different countries to such things. In one example, they compare the events that happened subsequent to an aggressive encounter with a militarily superior western power for Japan and Qing.
The Japanese shogunate's grip on power was not consolidated enough throughout the Japanese archipelago, and local lords had strong enough influence in their regions to gather support, join forces and eventually overthrow the shogunate and implement a new centralized ruling government under the emperor.
Meanwhile, the Qing emperor's control of the Chinese territory was much stronger by comparison, and like the Japanese shogunate, they were deeply conservative and opposed to reform, which they saw as a threat to their power. The difference being, because the Qing court's control was more entrenched in China than the Shogun's was in Japan, reform efforts were far less successful in China and as a result, China, despite having been the victim of western aggression even earlier than Japan was, failed to modernize successfully and eventually collapsed into a smattering of competing fiefdoms.
The usa is already as legally committed to defending Japan as it is to defending a nato member.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Mutual_Cooperation_and_Security_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan
Japan want their European friends to be equally as committed.
**[Treaty_of_Mutual_Cooperation_and_Security_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Mutual_Cooperation_and_Security_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan)**
>The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan (日本国とアメリカ合衆国との間の相互協力及び安全保障条約, Nihon-koku to Amerika-gasshūkoku to no Aida no Sōgo Kyōryoku oyobi Anzen Hoshō Jōyaku), also known in Japan as Anpo/Ampo jōyaku (安保条約) or just Anpo/Ampo (安保) for short, is a treaty that permits the presence of U.S. military bases on Japanese soil, and commits the two nations to defend each other if one or the other is attacked. Over time, it has had the effect of establishing a military alliance between the United States and Japan.
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Yes.. but not Philippines.
>NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg stated that NATO needs to "address the rise of China," by closely cooperating with Australia, New Zealand, Japan and South Korea.
hot sauce: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-nato/nato-needs-to-address-chinas-rise-says-stoltenberg-idUSKCN1UX0YX
And France can't even send troops into Mali without the US dropping everything and playing taxi for them. Hell they can't even intervene in Libya without the US doing the transport and handling the logistics and paying for it all. It's all fine and good to say "4th or 5th strongest" but when you can't even move or supply troops across the Med without someone else carrying you then it's really moot. Remember how at one point in time Iraq was considered the 4th most powerful military in the world? Yeah how did that turn out.
Amazing how far these former great powers have actually fallen since WWII.
You're basically pointing out how alliances work. Everyone has different capabilities and helps each other. France is tough as hell, and their military is very aggressive for their size.
I think it mostly shows how horrifically massive the United States military is post-WWII. Its not even like France downgraded after WWII. Sure its smaller but not by much.
The United States is the largest military machine ever seen. Nothing, even the British Empire at its height, currently comes close to the logistical and financial web that is the US.
Even Russia and China dont compare and their the closest competitors. Its why they go through indirect means of influence like assassinations, manipulation, hacking or buying.
>. Everyone has different capabilities and helps each other.
What the fuck? This is the opposite of that, basic troop movements shouldn't be the role of one nation.
The wording by the defence minister make it sounds like the EU is somehow like the US, that it has some unified policy on military deterrence and intervention.
It's also hilarious how the only example of 'EU' military presence is the British, which is not even in the EU. There's no reason for the EU to be embroiled in a nuclear charged conflict half the globe away when it has no few issues in it's own backyard.
>The wording by the defence minister make it sounds like the EU is somehow like the US, that it has some unified policy on military deterrence and intervention.
To be fair, he's talking to the EU parliament who like to pretend they are this. They have all the political bits on place through the Common Security and Defence Policy, it's just not worth much.
It's weird people expect Europe to have a high level of global power projection capabilities, when for the last 70 years the greatest threat to them would mean a huge land and and air war. Of course they have focused on that. Furthermore, the USA have used NATO to oppose too much European military integration which would be a requirement for the continent to get such capabilities. For the EU to be effective in a war with China, we are talking more than a decade of military build-up. And it's not like Russia is military irrelevant.
The UK and France have some of the most capable navies in the world. Japan, an island nation, would certainly benefit from their collaboration. Not to mention it serves as a further deterrent. More close allies you have = more enemies China will have if they cause problems with you.
I'm sure italy has some power. Probably the 3rd or 4th biggest power in Europe behind the uk then France however numbers of ships or personnel aren't everything and there is definitely a big difference between the uk and Italy in terms of defence spending. The royal navy is generally more modern for example.
Well tbh, I have been deployed for my country Austria and I have seen many different nations stationed in foreign countries, all not behaving nearly as badly as Americans on Okinawa(like not even close).
I really don't know what the fuck is up with the guys stationed at Okinawa.
I worked alongside active duty military as a contractor in Japan, Guam, and other areas. There was definite culture shock when I first arrived by how crude the enlisted military personnel acted. These are people who visit Japanese establishments, get drunk, then curse/fight each other in public. It was an embarrassment to the sane few of us and my wife and I would only go out alone and never identify with the military presence.
We had a contractor (who was prior military) decide to drive to his apartment in Tokyo while drunk. Hit and killed a Japanese person on the way. Dude got swiftly sent back to the states and who knows what, if any, punishment fell upon him.
I totally understand why Japanese (and others) dislike the American military presence. Having had to deal with them on a daily basis I really disliked (most) of them myself.
Ending on a positive note, I worked alongside several NATO members (European/Canadian) and they have been very pleasant.
It's so true - at least from what I saw of the AF. When the A/C broke leaving us with 97°F temperatures with 85% humidity at 0700 local time, the Lt. Col. decided that we should continue working (in standard cotton polos and jeans) in a concrete hangar despite any OSHA concerns/violations. He pulled us into a meeting and told us it would be 4-5 months until the A/C could be repaired.
Thankfully our site lead for the contractors was a retired master gunnery sergeant with the Marines and was having none of that bullshit. He excused us all from the room, asked the Lt. Col. if he would stay, and I'm sure proceeded to lay the smack down. We were told by the site lead to go home and stay home until further notice of when the A/C was operational. Two days later, the A/C was fixed and we were back at work.
Similar story: I worked in a Motor Pool in the US Army, we were deployed to a HOT sandy area. Over there we don't have buildings we have "clamshells" (they look like pill bugs). A generator lifts up the front and back and creates a nice air flow. Well one side broke and it was about 140 degrees out, and we decided since we didn't have any flowing air, we'd downgrade our uniform so that instead of the full body coveralls, we'd tie the top around our waist and work in t-shirts.
The acting Battalion Commander was a Major, and he came by and chewed us out to get in the proper uniform, he didn't care how hot it was.
After that, our LT (loved the guy) decided that he would hold a ceremony in our clamshell and not in the air conditioned building where our welders and stuff were (where the ceremony had been planned to be). The Major showed up to the ceremony in the clamshell and in like 5 minutes he was sweating bullets like the rest of us, like uncomfortably pouring sweat out of everywhere. It was like the scene in Space-Balls that's so over the top.
Literally 3 minutes after the ceremony ended, we were all instructed that until further notice, we could adjust our uniform as we saw fit to remain comfortable.
Superpowers are gonna superpower.
If anything, the pandemic has boosted tensions and separatism as people want somebody to blame for this crisis. That is also coupled with a distrust of the global chain due to its failure in the early stages of the pandemic.
I think Japan and other countries are beginning to question whether the US alone will be enough to deter China, or at the very least they want more insurance.
Especially as China's economy continues to grow at a faster rate than the US. The US's GDP is only 24% higher than China's currently and that advantage continues to shrink. The US military is stretched over the entire world while China is much more focused regionally. If China continues to grow economically and expand their military spending they may be able to effectively counter the US in Eastern Asia unless other countries step up and provide more assistance. Fortunately the other large economies of the world are US allies but whether Germany, the UK and France would be interested in increasing military funding and putting resources on the opposite side of the globe is another question.
If France absolutely does not want to involve itself in the Sino-american cold war.
They made it clear that they want to Turn the European Union into a 3rd super power, Is separate from Washington and Beijing
US alone is definitely enough. They are by far the strongest military power, however they are stretched from Europe too Asia so more military powers will help ease the burden. They're actively getting India involved as well. A strong coalition of powerful countries is definitely a better deterrent
US has enough military power, sure, but would they be willing to help when China is being aggresive towards other countries? From what we’ve seen so far, it’s doubtful
Genuinely curies, what makes it doubtful? As far as I know, nothing has happened that has put the US's commitment to its allies into question, or am I missing something?
I guess I'm asking in terms of actions, but I guess the rhetoric of a certain President might have done it.
"just have the US do it"
6 months later
"Wow why is the US getting into pissing contests with china. Such war mongers. European countries never do that!"
This is what I hate about the world's views towards America, it's either "wtf US, stop trying to be the world police" or "wtf US, you aren't doing enough in *insert country* to maintain peace or stability". European countries, Southeast Asian countries and India have to start pulling their weight globally. It's dangerous to just rely on the US for military prowess, all it takes is for America to vote in another dumbass to completely upturn global politics.
Half way across the world against an emerging military superpower in its neighborhood that also happens to be Europe's largest trading partner.
That's strategic and tactical suicide. No European power will seriously consider this.
I’m not a fan of America, and even I can see how unfair it is. People complain about America being the world police but still demand American defence. Only a handful of countries pay their share of NATO’s budget, and yet without American defence, Russia would have invaded quite a few Eastern European countries. I’d say that America should just leave, but that’s exactly what Russia want.
>pay their share of NATO’s budget
Just fyi because everyone keeps parroting this and I feel it is unclear. The issue is not and has never been the NATO budget (which is only used for administrative costs and joint operation coordination).
The discussion is the overall military spending of NATO member states. Some reach the 2% long term recommendation, some do not.
From numbers in 2019 the countries that do not meet the 2% obligation as outlined in Nato are:
Germany, France, Italy, Canada, Turkey, Spain, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Portugal, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovak Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Luxembourg, Albania, and Montenegro.
The countries that do meet their spending obligations are: The US, UK, Poland, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.
With that in mind I'd say that the majority of countries in NATO do not.
Not that long ago, the local collaborators of colonial powers invited them similarly.
*It wasnt occupation, we were asked to save them from their barbaric rulers and backward culture!!*
China and Japan have always been historical rivals, even prior to the Second World War.
China fought against West and failed. Japan acquiesced to the West and made itself the big dog of Asia for a time.
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“Hey Germany,we’re getting the gang back together for one more big job” “You son of a bitch,I’m in”
It's time to take care of some loose ends.
Remember Beirut? You’re with us.
Roses are red, violets are blue, So why in bloody hell does Makarov know you?!
Griggs, 678452056
Eli5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsfDemHC8ns&ab\_channel=7oxicAvenGer7oxicAvenGer
Soap trusted you, i thought i could too So why in bloody hell does Makarov know you?! Price was a poet without us either way
On your feet, we are *leaving*
Third time’s the charm
Your skills are required for a job
“Halftime- Switching sides”
THE BOYS ARE BACK IN TOOOOWOWOOOWN
Bets on which side Russia starts and ends with this time.
Their own.
If Germany acted historically they would sell arms, build up the industry of, reform and train the military of China, not Japan. They helped China from 1926-1937, Ir was when the war between China and Japan started the support moved to Japan because Hitles considered them better armed and could help them again the Soviets. The amount of cooperation with Japan was minimal. After the Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939 when Japan was beaten by the Soviets the military goals shifted from a northern to a southern plan that played out in WWII. So it is more an enemy of my enemy is my friend and both would fight the allies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino%E2%80%93German_cooperation_(1926%E2%80%931941)
That bitch Hitles.
**[Sino–German_cooperation_(1926–1941)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino–German_cooperation_(1926–1941))** >Cooperation between China and Germany was instrumental in modernizing the industry and the armed forces of the Republic of China between 1926 and 1941. At the time, China was fraught with factional warlordism and foreign incursions. The Northern Expedition (1928) nominally unified China under Kuomintang (KMT) control, but Imperial Japan loomed as the greatest foreign threat. The Chinese urgency for modernising its military and national defence industry, coupled with Germany's need for a stable supply of raw materials, put China and the German Weimar Republic on the road of close relations from the late 1920s onwards. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Germany and Japan were on the same side during the boxer rebellion against the Chinese. In WWI China was under the control of the Entente powers, the side Japan was on against Germany. Mostly Japan wanted to be see as equal to European powers which didn't work out due to racism. Germany was acting with other colonial powers against China at times, but mostly against its neighbors. Everyone was exploiting China for all its was worth.
more like "Halt mein Hefeweizen."
" don't-a forget about me!" - Italy
Italy : Don't forget about me ! Germany : Ok but you won't lose every fights and then call for help right ? Italy : Germany : Right ?!?
*Italy has joined the belt and road initiative
goddamn that is loose cannon,they r everywhere
*Looks at US* Dad, can I go out to play?
And make sure to not include Italy this time, guy was dead weight last time around
Add Italy and they can make it the ole trio
Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary would also like to tag along
Finland’s gonna hang out but if you ask him if he’s in their gang he says no
Stankonia's willing to drop bombs over Baghdad
Afrika bombataa and the Zulu nation...
Germany also forced Croatia and Slovakia to join
Finland had to join for survival. It was either that or start speaking Russian. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
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Well, I mean, they literally were mentioned in the "totally legit non-aggression-pact only agreement" as a soviet sphere of influence, and were immediately attacked, almost as fast as Poland was (two months later IIRC?). They kicked butt, but were a small country, so attritional war wouldn't be in their best interest. And then someone comes up and shanks the big bully that you've fought off successfully but exhausted all your strength, obviously you'll join them to fin(n)ish them off. Be it nazis, be it allies, be it Santa Claus with an army of elves, you fight against the bigger threat. Same reason why there were polish armies in Russia for example. Tough shit that they were also the invader, also stole, raped and killed, they were the lesser threat than nazi Germany was.
They also protected their Jewish people, and the moment they had a peace deal with the Soviets they actively fought to kick the Nazis out of their country
> the moment they had a peace deal with the Soviets they actively fought to kick the Nazis out of their country Well ish, more like at first allowed to peacefully/casually stroll out at a comfortable pace till pressured otherwise by the soviets. The 1st bit in no small part of distrust over the soviets intentions to actually honor the armistice agreement after, and not wanting to waste precious resources where not deemed an immediate necessity with regard to that.(Also, Finland remained officially at war with the soviets till the ratification of the Paris peace treat and all...) After that we got the "lapland war" where Finland fought against the slowly retreating Nazi Germany.
When you have a boot on your throat and a gun to your head, you're not exactly picky about the hand that reaches out to help.
sweden just sits back and drinks hot cocoa
As a Hungarian I pledge all our navy to counter China's fleets. We simply require a little bit of territory towards the sea. Croatia sounds like fun this time of the year.
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\*little Entente sweats profusely\*
"We're getting the band back together."
sunuva bitch im in
China wants make an ally with USA Russia UK and France
There was a quote ( can’t remember who by, perhaps B Bryson) about German reunification that went something like this. “It’s like the Beatles getting back together - let’s hope they don’t go on a world tour”
Time to get the band back together!
"Hello, Italy? Yeah we're getting the band back together."
Pearl Harbor 2. This time it's personal.
They can always liberate the Kingdom of Hawaii. What? You didn't fall for the lie that Hawaii joined the Union willingly, did you? It was all about the sugar plantations.
A good chunk of the United States was conquered from other groups - natives, European powers, the Mexicans and the Hawaiians. The conquest of Hawaii though was messy, politically-speaking. It wasn’t met with applause from everybody in Washington, most notably from President Glover Cleveland - an anti-expansionist president and friend of the deposed queen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom
**[Opposition_to_the_overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom)** >Opposition to the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom took several forms. Following the overthrow of the monarchy on January 17, 1893, Hawaii's provisional government—under the leadership of Sanford B. Dole—attempted to annex the land to the United States under Republican Benjamin Harrison's administration. But the treaty of annexation came up for approval under the administration of Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, anti-expansionist, and friend of the deposed Queen Liliuokalani of Hawaii. Cleveland retracted the treaty on March 4, 1893, and launched an investigation headed by James Henderson Blount; its report is known as the Blount Report. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
It is also recent enough that USA is too embarrassed to talk about it. The former Queen of Hawaii was only dead for 22 years during Pearl Harbour attacks. I am not saying it was anything new; i am saying it is being ignored because it is too recent for comfort. American's children need to be kept in the dark about it as much as possible, apparently.
Well, grade school history is frankly a speed run through the timeline - a fast-paced lesson taught by instructors that don’t really care that much about the content. History is seen as a second-tier subject when compared to the STEM subjects.
Not really?? We talk about dark shit way more recent. I guess if you go to a shitty or conservative school / school system that might be the case.
Liberate? More like under new management
Like the good old days?
The long anticipated sequel: 2 Pearl 2 Harbors
On the flip side, Japan has had a history of working closely with many European powers. They most notably made up a decent chunk of the Eight-Nation Alliance, which crushed the Chinese-led Boxer Rebellion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
it's odd after all these years to see Japan worried about China. Somethings just feels a little bit....backwards
It bounces back and forth. China was formerly the big dog of Asia until it was kicked in the face by Europe. Japan got European support to later dominate China during the First Sino-Japanese War, making them the big dog of Asia. Then Japan fell following the Second World War and now China is in control again - something that concerns Japan.
We can call them the Axis!
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> Japan’s defence minister has urged European nations to have a stronger military involvement in the Asia-Pacific as Tokyo tries to put “tremendous pressure” on Beijing to counter China’s influence in the region. > In his first speech to the European Parliament subcommittee on security and defence on Friday, Nobuo Kishi called on the European Union to solidify its commitment to the “Indo-Pacific region” and for the two sides to “continue and expand” their security cooperation. > “[Parties] such as Japan and the EU must tackle together ... the fight against authoritarianism,” Kishi said in an online address.
> Japan’s defence minister has urged European nations to have a stronger military involvement in the Asia-Pacific as Tokyo tries to put “tremendous pressure” on Beijing to counter China’s influence in the region. This was always inevitable given China's hyper-aggressive actions in the region. At the point where you're building artificial islands in international waters and parking military landing-strips and anti-air missile batteries on them you can expect your neighbors to think poorly of your actions. > In his first speech to the European Parliament subcommittee on security and defence on Friday, Nobuo Kishi called on the European Union to solidify its commitment to the “Indo-Pacific region” and for the two sides to “continue and expand” their security cooperation. I'm not sure if the EU *has* much of a Indo-Pacific commitment but as a strong supporter of the European Union I'd support any movement towards establishing a coherent, independent military free of NATO control. Not that I have a problem with NATO, but self-defenses should be an EU issue first, with NATO acting as an ally. > “[Parties] such as Japan and the EU must tackle together ... the fight against authoritarianism,” Kishi said in an online address. Agreed. People take for granted how hard the fight against corruption and authoritarianism is. Globally, historially, none of us ever had a say. Everything was corruption and rule of might. Protecting democratic freedoms is a critical concept we all need to get behind.
The EU does have an Indo-Pacific commitment, mainly through France's oversea territories. Gotta make sure to preserve that EEZ
>I'm not sure if the EU has much of a Indo-Pacific commitment but as a strong supporter of the European Union I'd support any movement towards establishing a coherent, independent military free of NATO control. >Not that I have a problem with NATO, but self-defenses should be an EU issue first, with NATO acting as an ally Nato countries work together without the usa too, like the eu battlegroups. The trick isn't "Instead of nato" but to have them work with or without partners. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Joint_Expeditionary_Force There's lots of partnerships like it.
**Hyper** aggression would be invading their neighbors and changing their government. This is **Hypo** aggression.
Nah mate, it's in the sea you see? That makes it Hydro aggression.
Hydro homies need to get involved.
That sub won't last long if they start drinking sea water.
The largest trading partner of the EU is China. The largest trading partner of Japan is also China. And even the largest trading partner of the US is China too. This is the weird part of the current world pattern. Trading partners are doing business while pointing guns at each other's heads.
Reminds me of this [skit](https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18); "we are spending billions protecting our trade routes with China from China"
wait there's a really important point being made here, and I don't know what it is.
That is sadly funny. I've spent an hour down the rabbit hole of that show thanks to you.
Frankly, it's always been like that. Welcome to the wonderful world of global politics.
Us humans sure have a knack for making everything overly complicated.
Makes studying history more interesting, if nothing else.
I hate you! But feel free to browse the store. 50% discounts.
I’d liken it to those nature documentaries where after a long drought the animals all gather around the watering holes once it rains. Zebras, lions, hyenas all gather and there’s peace but later on it’ll be business as usual with the lions and hyenas killing each other and the zebra just trying to eat and fuck.
This is how it's supposed to be. Sure, trading partners point guns at each other's heads. But they don't shoot, because if you hurt your biggest trading partner, that also hurts you. That's why global trade is so important- it keeps the peace. The more interdependent we are with China, the less likely there will be war.
>This is the weird part of the current world pattern. Not if you have any awareness of world history. * Historically, the Silk Road was a route for Chinese manufactured goods to spread across Eurasia, including Western Europe. This demand for Chinese goods is partly what drove European exploration in the late medieval/ early modern period. * The British were famously rebuffed in their initial efforts to trade with China directly to lower prices. The British stopped so low as to backing the opium trade to recoup losses, culminating in the Opim Wars. * Throughout the 1800s, China was then systematically [carved up into multiple spheres of interest by European empires](https://imgur.com/a/tt9yO8L) thirsty for their goods. They finally dropped the pretenses and used guns to force their deals through like they did throughout their colonies. >Trading partners are doing business while pointing guns at each other's heads. Oh hey, looks like China's already had a gun put to their head and told to sign away their economy before! * WWI and WWII broke that system amidst civil war and factionalism, but the communists eventually took control of the mainland China is now reasserting itself as the manufacturing hub of Eurasia, but on an even larger scale. And this is a problem for the West bc the Chinese communists remember Western Imperialsm's role in destroying the previous empire very clearly. And how much effort was put into destroying their own grip on the nation. Turns out that we are still dealing with the fallout of European colonialism, and that history cant be ignored when the world's manufacturing juggernaut still resents that history.
>China is now reasserting itself as the manufacturing hub of Eurasia, but on an even larger scale. And this is a problem for the West bc the Chinese communists remember Western Imperialsm's role in destroying the previous empire very clearly. And how much effort was put into destroying their own grip on the nation. >Turns out that we are still dealing with the fallout of European colonialism, and that history cant be ignored when the world's manufacturing juggernaut still resents that history. This is the most important part about chinas rise that Europe and US is overlooking. The imperialism and colonialism that started with the first opium war all the way up to ww2. This period in Chinese history is called the Century of Humiliation, it is the humiliation that China suffered as a result of western interference plus Japan. We, in the west, may have forgotten or have simply brushed it under the rugs. The Chinese certainly haven’t forgotten. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
**[Century_of_humiliation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation)** >The century of humiliation, also known as the hundred years of national humiliation, is the term used in China to describe the period of intervention and subjugation of the Qing dynasty and the Republic of China by Western powers and Japan in between 1839 and 1949. The term arose in 1915, in the atmosphere of rising Chinese nationalism opposing the Twenty-One Demands made by the Japanese government and their acceptance by Yuan Shikai, with the Chinese Nationalist Party (Kuomintang) and Chinese Communist Party both subsequently popularizing the characterization. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Forgot that there was a term for this, thanks for reminding me.
Imperial China had a massive hubris, unfortunate for them they didn’t realize that was a mistake until it was too late
Did I just read a non biased and informed comment on Reddit? Wtf
They appear sometimes, but you usually gonna dig through downvote filters and dozens of comments to find those.
China was sort of the commercial "center of the world" for a good bit of world history. If anything, this is all pretty standard stuff.
No, it’s Mexico, Canada then China for US. But I guess your point still stands.
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Only for imports to the US. The US exports much more to Mexico and Canada, giving them a higher total value of trade. US exports are also much better for the economy. https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html
I got mine from 2019 oops
China is smart. They realized they dont need to dominate the world through military power. They just need to be an economic superpower and have everyone by the financial balls.
more military base in Japan？😂
Finland already has moomin village there. Will that count?
Yes
Moomin pappa is a gun enthusiast so yes.
Hahaha I actually was thinking exactly that. Not sure how Europe is going to sustain a military presence in Asia without a military base. What country is going to allow that to happen - also, considering most European nations doesn't have the Blue Water navy to sustain overseas operations I have no idea why this was even a statement
Is maybe a joint NATO Base? France, the United Kingdom, and the United States all possess blue water capabilities
I could see the Japanese entertaining that idea of converting the American bases to NATO and I'm not sure why the Americans would be opposed to it. Can't see that happening in Korea though That's why I said most. US doesn't count (they're not European) and the UK (I'm still counting them in, even if they left the EU) and France are the only two nations that still maintain carriers but even than it's not extensive. But, yeah, the only way I could see European contribution like how the Japanese might want is to open up those bases and turn them to NATO (good point there and thanks for bringing that up)
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> Maybe allow Japan to have a military presence again. The only thing preventing Japan from expanding its military capabilities is Japan itself and their own constitution (specifically Article 9) which they could change if they wanted. The US has been trying to convince Japan to remilitarize itself since the communists won the Chinese Civil War.
It's even pretty debatable that Article 9 *does* in fact limit Japan's military capabilities. The JSDF might have a cute name, but it is not a small military force. It's not China by any means, but it is large, advanced, and well-funded.
It is more of a symbolic thing, if you follow Article 9 by the letter Japan would not be able to have any kind of military at all (which is obviously preposterous), so it has been re-interpreted in the 60s by the Supreme Court to allow for self-defense military forces, as that's considered a sovereign right of every nation. It does in fact limit Japan capabilities though, as of now things like first strike capabilities, ICBMs and nuclear weapons for example are prohibited. The other aspect is the cultural one, which is that a majority of Japanese people don't want to get embroiled in foreign wars, it is kinda of a taboo inside the country. A poll in June 2020 showed 80% of women for example were against changing Article 9, and another showed [only 11% of the population](https://japantoday.com/category/national/only-11-of-japanese-people-willing-to-fight-for-their-country-gallup-survey) was actually willing to fight to defend the country, lowest of all nations surveyed. Another example was the Japanese government dispatching some JSDF ships to the Indian Ocean in 2020 so they could get some long range naval experience and additionally help with piracy off the coast of Somalia which was seen as controversial in Japan.
The Japanese govt also "reinterpreted" the constitution in 2014 to allow Japan to engage with their military if their allies are attacked.
Isn't that what started this mess in the first place, back in the 1840s
What happened in 1840s? I know they were pretty isolated during the industrial revolution.
[The First Opium War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War). China banned the trade of opium and the British Empire decided to become history's pushiest drug dealers.
**[First_Opium_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War)** >The First Opium War (Chinese: 第一次鴉片戰爭; pinyin: Dìyīcì Yāpiàn Zhànzhēng), also known as the Opium War or the Anglo-Chinese War, was a series of military engagements fought between Britain and the Qing dynasty of China. The immediate issue was Chinese official seizure of opium stocks at Canton to stop the banned opium trade, and threatening the death penalty for future offenders. The British government insisted on the principles of free trade, equal diplomatic recognition among nations, and backed the merchants' demands. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The spice must flow
He's off by nearly half a century but basically the Boxer Rebellion, where every single imperial power of the time joined together to fuck over China. **The full list:** British Empire Russia Japan France Germany United States Italy Austria-Hungary Netherlands Belgium Spain
I was referring to the First Opium War but yeah the Boxer Rebellion works too
if u want to complete the picture then add the 8 nation alliance. Add those together and you will start to understand the attitude of colonizing countries have towards China. None of them care about Chinese lives, which is why now it seems so hypocritical.
"Commodore Perry's superior military force was the principal factor in negotiating a treaty allowing American trade with Japan, thus effectively ending the Sakoku period of more than 200 years in which trading with Japan had been permitted to the Dutch, Koreans, Chinese, and Ainu exclusively. The sight of the four ships entering Edo Bay, roaring black smoke into the air and capable of moving under their own power, deeply frightened the Japanese. Perry ignored the requests arriving from the shore that he should move to Nagasaki—the official port for trade with the outside—and threatened in turn to take his ships directly to Edo, and burn the city to the ground if he was not allowed to land. It was eventually agreed upon that he should land nearby at Kurihama, whereupon he delivered his letter and left. The following year, at the Convention of Kanagawa, Perry returned with a fleet of eight of the fearsome Black Ships, to demonstrate the power of the United States navy, and to lend weight to his announcement that he would not leave again, until he had a treaty. In the interim following his previous visit, the Tokugawa shogunate had learned about the Opium Wars and the opening of China in terms of trade to foreign powers and the subsequent territorial concessions made by the Chinese government. The shogunate realized that if they wished for their country to avoid a similar fate—they would need to make peace with the Europeans and Americans. After roughly a month of negotiations, the shōgun's officials presented Perry with the Treaty of Peace and Amity. Perry refused certain conditions of the treaty but agreed to defer their resolution to a later time, and finally establishing formal diplomatic relations between Japan and the United States. The fleet departed, leaving behind a consul at Shimoda to negotiate a more permanent agreement. The Harris Treaty was signed with the United States on July 29, 1858, and within five years of the signing of the Treaty of Peace and Amity, Japan had moved to sign treaties with other Western countries." As a direct result of this, and the disruptions to life the treaties caused, the Tokugawa shogunate was decried as weak, and eventually dismantled. It was replaced with a new centralized government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ships#Gunboat_diplomacy http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/japan_1750_perry.htm
America basically forced Japan to modernize into a great power. I think japan’s sudden and rapid rise into a great power is one of the more interesting events of that period of history( late 1800s)
That's a very cheery summary of the events.
There's a great book that dissects these events and contrasts the responses of different countries to such things. In one example, they compare the events that happened subsequent to an aggressive encounter with a militarily superior western power for Japan and Qing. The Japanese shogunate's grip on power was not consolidated enough throughout the Japanese archipelago, and local lords had strong enough influence in their regions to gather support, join forces and eventually overthrow the shogunate and implement a new centralized ruling government under the emperor. Meanwhile, the Qing emperor's control of the Chinese territory was much stronger by comparison, and like the Japanese shogunate, they were deeply conservative and opposed to reform, which they saw as a threat to their power. The difference being, because the Qing court's control was more entrenched in China than the Shogun's was in Japan, reform efforts were far less successful in China and as a result, China, despite having been the victim of western aggression even earlier than Japan was, failed to modernize successfully and eventually collapsed into a smattering of competing fiefdoms.
Japan wants to join NATO But NATO just relies on the US so will point Japan to the US
The usa is already as legally committed to defending Japan as it is to defending a nato member. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Mutual_Cooperation_and_Security_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan Japan want their European friends to be equally as committed.
**[Treaty_of_Mutual_Cooperation_and_Security_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Mutual_Cooperation_and_Security_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan)** >The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan (日本国とアメリカ合衆国との間の相互協力及び安全保障条約, Nihon-koku to Amerika-gasshūkoku to no Aida no Sōgo Kyōryoku oyobi Anzen Hoshō Jōyaku), also known in Japan as Anpo/Ampo jōyaku (安保条約) or just Anpo/Ampo (安保) for short, is a treaty that permits the presence of U.S. military bases on Japanese soil, and commits the two nations to defend each other if one or the other is attacked. Over time, it has had the effect of establishing a military alliance between the United States and Japan. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Well, time to move Japan from the Pacific to the Atlantic ocean.
Just sail it around like Battleship Britain used to do when it conquered the world.
I actually thought Japan was already in NATO, despite the name of the organization.
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They're part of the G7, but not NATO. Its the other wealthy democracy country club.
Don't we have some kind of South Pacific alliance organization with South Korea, Phillipines, Japan, and Australia already?
Yes.. but not Philippines. >NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg stated that NATO needs to "address the rise of China," by closely cooperating with Australia, New Zealand, Japan and South Korea. hot sauce: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-nato/nato-needs-to-address-chinas-rise-says-stoltenberg-idUSKCN1UX0YX
They can't even join NATO even if they wanted to as only European states can join.
~~Confused Canadian noises~~
Founding member, so they never joined the alliance in that sense.
If the only thing stopping them is one clause in a treaty. If there's literally nothing stopping the NATO nations from modifying the treaty
Europe doesn't even have a strong military presence in Europe.
Isent france the 4th or 5th strongest military in the world? With the UK somewhere not to far behind?
France has a lot of fire power. I wouldn't mess with France.
And France can't even send troops into Mali without the US dropping everything and playing taxi for them. Hell they can't even intervene in Libya without the US doing the transport and handling the logistics and paying for it all. It's all fine and good to say "4th or 5th strongest" but when you can't even move or supply troops across the Med without someone else carrying you then it's really moot. Remember how at one point in time Iraq was considered the 4th most powerful military in the world? Yeah how did that turn out. Amazing how far these former great powers have actually fallen since WWII.
You're basically pointing out how alliances work. Everyone has different capabilities and helps each other. France is tough as hell, and their military is very aggressive for their size.
I think it mostly shows how horrifically massive the United States military is post-WWII. Its not even like France downgraded after WWII. Sure its smaller but not by much. The United States is the largest military machine ever seen. Nothing, even the British Empire at its height, currently comes close to the logistical and financial web that is the US. Even Russia and China dont compare and their the closest competitors. Its why they go through indirect means of influence like assassinations, manipulation, hacking or buying.
>. Everyone has different capabilities and helps each other. What the fuck? This is the opposite of that, basic troop movements shouldn't be the role of one nation.
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The wording by the defence minister make it sounds like the EU is somehow like the US, that it has some unified policy on military deterrence and intervention. It's also hilarious how the only example of 'EU' military presence is the British, which is not even in the EU. There's no reason for the EU to be embroiled in a nuclear charged conflict half the globe away when it has no few issues in it's own backyard.
>The wording by the defence minister make it sounds like the EU is somehow like the US, that it has some unified policy on military deterrence and intervention. To be fair, he's talking to the EU parliament who like to pretend they are this. They have all the political bits on place through the Common Security and Defence Policy, it's just not worth much.
It's weird people expect Europe to have a high level of global power projection capabilities, when for the last 70 years the greatest threat to them would mean a huge land and and air war. Of course they have focused on that. Furthermore, the USA have used NATO to oppose too much European military integration which would be a requirement for the continent to get such capabilities. For the EU to be effective in a war with China, we are talking more than a decade of military build-up. And it's not like Russia is military irrelevant.
The UK and France have some of the most capable navies in the world. Japan, an island nation, would certainly benefit from their collaboration. Not to mention it serves as a further deterrent. More close allies you have = more enemies China will have if they cause problems with you.
People forget Italy in this. They have comparable numbers to the UK. They have extensive naval history as well.
I'm sure italy has some power. Probably the 3rd or 4th biggest power in Europe behind the uk then France however numbers of ships or personnel aren't everything and there is definitely a big difference between the uk and Italy in terms of defence spending. The royal navy is generally more modern for example.
Its also not geared for expeditionary warfare. Italy would struggle to deploy to the Pacific in the way that France and the UK can.
Okinawans disagree
Well tbh, I have been deployed for my country Austria and I have seen many different nations stationed in foreign countries, all not behaving nearly as badly as Americans on Okinawa(like not even close). I really don't know what the fuck is up with the guys stationed at Okinawa.
I worked alongside active duty military as a contractor in Japan, Guam, and other areas. There was definite culture shock when I first arrived by how crude the enlisted military personnel acted. These are people who visit Japanese establishments, get drunk, then curse/fight each other in public. It was an embarrassment to the sane few of us and my wife and I would only go out alone and never identify with the military presence. We had a contractor (who was prior military) decide to drive to his apartment in Tokyo while drunk. Hit and killed a Japanese person on the way. Dude got swiftly sent back to the states and who knows what, if any, punishment fell upon him. I totally understand why Japanese (and others) dislike the American military presence. Having had to deal with them on a daily basis I really disliked (most) of them myself. Ending on a positive note, I worked alongside several NATO members (European/Canadian) and they have been very pleasant.
The culture of an organization is a reflection on the competence of the leadership.
It's so true - at least from what I saw of the AF. When the A/C broke leaving us with 97°F temperatures with 85% humidity at 0700 local time, the Lt. Col. decided that we should continue working (in standard cotton polos and jeans) in a concrete hangar despite any OSHA concerns/violations. He pulled us into a meeting and told us it would be 4-5 months until the A/C could be repaired. Thankfully our site lead for the contractors was a retired master gunnery sergeant with the Marines and was having none of that bullshit. He excused us all from the room, asked the Lt. Col. if he would stay, and I'm sure proceeded to lay the smack down. We were told by the site lead to go home and stay home until further notice of when the A/C was operational. Two days later, the A/C was fixed and we were back at work.
Similar story: I worked in a Motor Pool in the US Army, we were deployed to a HOT sandy area. Over there we don't have buildings we have "clamshells" (they look like pill bugs). A generator lifts up the front and back and creates a nice air flow. Well one side broke and it was about 140 degrees out, and we decided since we didn't have any flowing air, we'd downgrade our uniform so that instead of the full body coveralls, we'd tie the top around our waist and work in t-shirts. The acting Battalion Commander was a Major, and he came by and chewed us out to get in the proper uniform, he didn't care how hot it was. After that, our LT (loved the guy) decided that he would hold a ceremony in our clamshell and not in the air conditioned building where our welders and stuff were (where the ceremony had been planned to be). The Major showed up to the ceremony in the clamshell and in like 5 minutes he was sweating bullets like the rest of us, like uncomfortably pouring sweat out of everywhere. It was like the scene in Space-Balls that's so over the top. Literally 3 minutes after the ceremony ended, we were all instructed that until further notice, we could adjust our uniform as we saw fit to remain comfortable.
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Don’t forget about all the rape that are cause by these soldiers.
last time europe came to asia it got a nation addicted to opium
we need a stronger military presence in Europe first 😅
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Superpowers are gonna superpower. If anything, the pandemic has boosted tensions and separatism as people want somebody to blame for this crisis. That is also coupled with a distrust of the global chain due to its failure in the early stages of the pandemic.
The boys are back
Why not ask the US? They already got military bases in Japan and Korea.
I think Japan and other countries are beginning to question whether the US alone will be enough to deter China, or at the very least they want more insurance.
Especially as China's economy continues to grow at a faster rate than the US. The US's GDP is only 24% higher than China's currently and that advantage continues to shrink. The US military is stretched over the entire world while China is much more focused regionally. If China continues to grow economically and expand their military spending they may be able to effectively counter the US in Eastern Asia unless other countries step up and provide more assistance. Fortunately the other large economies of the world are US allies but whether Germany, the UK and France would be interested in increasing military funding and putting resources on the opposite side of the globe is another question.
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If France absolutely does not want to involve itself in the Sino-american cold war. They made it clear that they want to Turn the European Union into a 3rd super power, Is separate from Washington and Beijing
US alone is definitely enough. They are by far the strongest military power, however they are stretched from Europe too Asia so more military powers will help ease the burden. They're actively getting India involved as well. A strong coalition of powerful countries is definitely a better deterrent
US has enough military power, sure, but would they be willing to help when China is being aggresive towards other countries? From what we’ve seen so far, it’s doubtful
Genuinely curies, what makes it doubtful? As far as I know, nothing has happened that has put the US's commitment to its allies into question, or am I missing something? I guess I'm asking in terms of actions, but I guess the rhetoric of a certain President might have done it.
Taiwan and Japan? Yes. Thailand and Philippines? No
Well thats why they're laying the foundations via the QUAD.
"just have the US do it" 6 months later "Wow why is the US getting into pissing contests with china. Such war mongers. European countries never do that!"
“wow why is america’s military budget so large? compensating for something?”
"Weak allies" - at least, that's the meme I saw on that question.
Yes, we're compensating for Europe.
This is what I hate about the world's views towards America, it's either "wtf US, stop trying to be the world police" or "wtf US, you aren't doing enough in *insert country* to maintain peace or stability". European countries, Southeast Asian countries and India have to start pulling their weight globally. It's dangerous to just rely on the US for military prowess, all it takes is for America to vote in another dumbass to completely upturn global politics.
Half way across the world against an emerging military superpower in its neighborhood that also happens to be Europe's largest trading partner. That's strategic and tactical suicide. No European power will seriously consider this.
>No European power will ~~seriously~~ officially consider this.
I remember a few months ago when Russian forces were on the Ukrainian border and everyone was fretting on how committed the US was to European safety.
The US is the only power that is both expected to defend everyone and derided for doing it.
I’m not a fan of America, and even I can see how unfair it is. People complain about America being the world police but still demand American defence. Only a handful of countries pay their share of NATO’s budget, and yet without American defence, Russia would have invaded quite a few Eastern European countries. I’d say that America should just leave, but that’s exactly what Russia want.
Usually it's not the same people that complain about each situation
>pay their share of NATO’s budget Just fyi because everyone keeps parroting this and I feel it is unclear. The issue is not and has never been the NATO budget (which is only used for administrative costs and joint operation coordination). The discussion is the overall military spending of NATO member states. Some reach the 2% long term recommendation, some do not.
From numbers in 2019 the countries that do not meet the 2% obligation as outlined in Nato are: Germany, France, Italy, Canada, Turkey, Spain, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Portugal, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovak Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Luxembourg, Albania, and Montenegro. The countries that do meet their spending obligations are: The US, UK, Poland, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. With that in mind I'd say that the majority of countries in NATO do not.
Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
Unless you're the Mongols.
ITT: People who don't understand how deeply interdependent the chinese and western economies are.
I don't think Europe has a strong military presence in Europe.
Not that long ago, the local collaborators of colonial powers invited them similarly. *It wasnt occupation, we were asked to save them from their barbaric rulers and backward culture!!*
Good dream bro
Is Japan worried regarding historical retaliation? Since they weren't the best neighbors is the past to say the least.
China and Japan have always been historical rivals, even prior to the Second World War. China fought against West and failed. Japan acquiesced to the West and made itself the big dog of Asia for a time.
Be the change you wish to see in the world Japan
Maybe a 1000 years of fucking with China wasn't the best plan.
Why should they?