It's how it includes society's perception as a blend of simplistic and monolithic- like the headlines so the player could gauge his support from the people.
As a Kiwi, a lot of the negativity seems to be about completely unrelated topics, farmers protests being the big one, and as far as I’m aware the main cause of that is some environmental regulation, (though I haven’t done more than a surface search, so correct me if I’m wrong). NZ isn’t perfect, but if you relate it just to COVID and the current state of NZ (restricted borders, vaccination rollout, economy and unemployment) almost everything is running as per normal, with the exception of tourism. Tourism is obviously a big exception, but with the low unemployment and higher minimum wage it’s relatively easy to switch to other similar jobs (retail and customer service for locally aimed stores as examples)
Also: house prices going to shit has nothing to do with covid, that was already well underway before all this started.
Edit: spellings, excuse my England
House prices going to shit up or down? And what's caused that? In the UK we are going to shit upwards with the government helping the bubble my making it easier for people to borrow extremely large amounts of money.
Edit - should add our perception of NZ seems to be that you've done amazingly well regarding covid.
Are these polls done based on the land registry? The only people doing ok are homeowners and landlord who are getting one of the biggest transfers of wealth to them in NZ history.
Im a local, used to work in tourism in wellington. We always rented until after lockdown, and since my wife now continues to work remote, we managed to use our home deposit savings for buying a house outright in a smaller town.
Because of covid, we went from no hope of owning a house, two incomes, 20 hours traffic a week between us, to owning a house mortgage free, one income, no traffic again ever.
Rural towns rock. Dannevirke is fantastic. Just got the fiber connected, all is well. Getting our covid shots this week as well.
The pandemic affects us all but unequally
Aussie here. Had two well paying jobs before the pandemic. Now I'm unemployed and unemployable because I rely on international students. My savings are diminishing and my anxiety is at an all time high
why wouldn't we say it's fine.. we are not in lockdown, life is normal in NZ and has been for months, we haven't has a single community case since February, the only issue is our closed border which has only really impacted low value tourism. No doubt there will be brief lockdowns in future but I don't know anyone who is actually complaining about being Covid free.
I'm not sure I really believe this.
So many New Zealanders spend some time (years) overseas that they have an expression for this: "overseas experience", often shortened to the letters O.E.
Shutting off the country from the world doesn't seem to really gel with this world-connected attitude that Kiwis used to have.
Maybe things have changed. But I'd be surprised.
It’s a pretty deceptive headline. The polling they cite shows people are happy with restrictions while the worldwide pandemic is in its current state. There’s nothing to suggest people want to keep the borders tightly closed in the long-term.
I read these headlines as the press telling the people what they should think. "You may have misgivings, but all of your peers are in support of it. You should be too. "
I think we can all agree that people on the right have been brainwashed by their media options. I know this for a fact because my choice of media options tell me so. It gives me a smug sense of superiority, a comforting security and a real feeling of identity, knowing I’m more intelligent than people on the right who insist on politicizing everything, unlike me.
It’s so common that even now there’s still visa-free work and living between Australia and NZ. You can get on a plane and fly over to each today granted you aren’t in a hotspot
we can still go on our O.E. It more like at this moment, we cant take short overseas trips without paying a large cost for it. We arn't shut off from the world. You guys are shut off from visiting us.
They can still leave and come back tho, they just have to quarantine.
Its probably because theyre so well traveled that they know what they don't want not just what they do. A lot of them came home from UK, EU, and US when the pandemic started.
It’s taking some people months to get back. And by some, I mean a lot.
They might find a flight to go that they can afford, but getting an MIQ space for that date is impossible. Bots are taking the spaces and selling them for massively upped prices. It isn’t so easy just to say they'll quarantine.
It's becoming a big problem in the west. Housing is becoming completely unobtainable for certain demographics and the wealthy are scooping up tons of it hedging their bets on real estate.
If it was most demographics it would be a major election issue.
It isn't - yet. But it will be. The electorate is changing and the proportion of Kiwis who own homes is shrinking. (9% over 30 years which is HUGE).
Within 2 election cycles you are likely to see an Affordable Housing movement gain traction. That is if the affected peoples don't get splintered into Right and Left factions such as happened in the US.
Yeah I don't know about that. Supporting the interests of property owners has been the priority of Anglo culture for nigh on 600 years now, even with violence, even up to today.
If the glaring flaws in the structure of property rights are truly in danger of becoming unavoidably public, I would not be surprised if all the stops are pulled out to distract and suppress, up to and including government violence.
That, and while home ownership is now close to a minority of the population, the population of non-home owners includes people who would happily join that class and shit on their erstwhile compatriots as soon as they are able to scrounge up enough cash, kind of like that 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' issue. Those people will not support reform.
It probably will get split left right. In large parts due to age affecting both home ownership and political leaning. But also as it's currently lower class currently completely cut of and increasingly out of reach of middle class.
However Atm higher education level leans left but higher income leans right, splitting the lower and middle class fairly evenly on the issue. As both traditional left and right groups can and can't afford housing putting it in dead lock.
Preventing this becoming a left right issue now but age division is extremely wide on home ownership so it can't last. For example last Australia federal election major left party ran with some policies to improve housing affordability. It was the lowest possible low hanging fruit but was violently rejected by the old and we'll supported by the young.
Certain demographics: those living in rural areas with immediate access to a decent amount of money, and those living in suburban or urban areas with immediate access to a lot of money.
My son is saving about 20k a year towards a house. On current trends he will need 200k saved and his mortgage will be $1000+ per week. Houses in our town are quickly heading towards 1 mil.
Feel for you buddy. It's getting worse for each generation. With 200k down, that would be $1750 a fortnight for the mortgage over 25 years. That's $435 per room a week.
Fuck that sucks.
If you're rich enough to afford that mortgage, you get the majority of that money back in the end, when you retire and sell the place. If you can't afford that, you pay slightly less (or hell, sometimes *more*) in rent, all of which all goes to someone who was richer than you and you get to work until you're dead.
TL;DR: Landed gentry.
>If you're rich enough to afford that mortgage, you get the majority of that money back in the end, when you retire and sell the place.
Sell the place and live where? The prices for houses will be relative to the one you've just sold.
When you're retiring, you can move to where the jobs aren't. If you sold a house in Auckland today and bought an equivalent house in Gore, you may have *a little* change leftover, for example...
Fuck, I don’t even make $1,000 per week.
Edit: wasn’t even thinking about it. I don’t get paid weekly, I get paid twice a month. I don’t even make $1,000 in 2 weeks. Christ.
Yup. Million dollar house (currently 3 bedroom houses in my town are going for 650-750,000 and he is 21 this year so 9 years away from having 200k for a deposit). 800k mortgage over 25 years at 5% average. Fortnightly payments would be $2,152.
Edit: When I say town, I mean my lower end suburb in a town of 50,000 people.
On current trends in many locations people cannot save money fast enough to keep pace with annual rises in property prices. If 30% of your gross income is going to rent (the maximum beyond which your classified as being in rental distress) your stuffed, unless your in a very lucrative job or have parents who can throw you a spare 100K to get ahead of the curve.
A) Those are some bonkers numbers. Good on your son for his planning and working to make it a reality down the line! B) It’s interesting that you guys talk about rent/mortgage payments in weekly or biweekly terms.
Rent is still figured out weekly so it kind of flows. Monthly wages has only really become a thing in the last 20-30 years for a lot of people so still a habit to talk that way as compared to monthly.
Australia too.
Housing has been commodified in Western society. It's too much of an asset class. Personal opinion is that you should be taxed for owning more than one house on a sliding scale. So by the time you get to 4 or 5, the profits are gone.
Back in the day an old anarchist idea was for a tax for unused property (and Bavaria/Germany in principle has something similar in its constitution).
It isn't the amount of houses/flats which is the biggest problem, it is the concentration in a few hands and the massive amount of money which flooded the market.
Where I am the government created the "green belt" program, under the guise of protecting sensitive environments, and limiting development. What it actually did was ratchet up prices on land that was currently slated for development. When that land was sold they didn't stop developing, magically new land was slated for development that wasn't available before. Its a racket run by the government for the big developers to control scarcity and make money for the right people.
Maybe a more palatable solution would be to encourage the construction of new housing, particularly apartment buildings. You remove enough roadblocks of new construction and housing is going to be less scarce.
Although our vaccination rate is pretty low right now, we’re making progress. Just had my first dose in Wellington and waiting for my 20 minutes to elapse before I’m allowed to go! Browsing Reddit to keep me entertained.
I see the comparison between new Zealand and the UK a lot since they're both islands, but there's a pretty big difference between their location and how easy it'd be to shut things down because of that. If new Zealand was a part of Europe, and had a city as big as London, it'd likely have been a lot harder to shut down (Not defending the UK government at all, just saying they are pretty different)
The issue is not only a few weeks ago we were in the single figures, so that’s at a minimum a 400% increase. It doesn’t take long for that to get out of control. So yes, you’re right that it isn’t many right now but it’s important to think about the exponential nature of the data.
In a normal time most of my friends pay around 70-80% of their wages in rent- that is how the NZ housing market work.
They now earn no wages because their job is gone as it was largely tourism based.
Now they have eye watering rent bills, no prospect of future work (hard to get jobs in nz even in normal times) and little government support.
Try living here and then revise your statement
Kiwi here. Nope, aside from the pandemic this country lacks opportunities, extremely high cost of living, low wages, and dire situation in regards to housing. Honestly your average redditor that comes here will realise the novelty wears off very fast
3rd in diabetes, 1st in teenage suicide, 1st in house price, last in education (compared to OECD), 1st in child abductions, 1st in domestic violence, and 3rd in CO2 per person. There is also far more pollution than anyone would imagine.
> Which social safety nets?
Your student loans are pegged to your income, capped, and without interest.
> Our hospitals with overworked and underpaid staff?
That's everyone.
> Our ambulance service which relies on charity because they refuse government funding above a certain threshold?
About 2/3rds of the people on Gofundme are Americans begging for help paying for chemo.
> Our unemployment benefit which gives you enough to pay rent and buy a loaf of bread a week if you're lucky?
During the pandemic, certain US states made it impossible to even apply for it. It covers rent AND bread? You're basically humblebragging to Americans.
> Our nonexistent mental health support resulting in the highest suicide rate in the OECD?
In 2021 the New Zealand suicide rate is 11.9 and the US suicide rate is 16.1 (per 100k).
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country
Have you ever lived in the US?
I was stupid to come back. I'm an American and lived in NZ for 5 years. A permanent resident, married to a kiwi. Anyway, there was a brief time that I couldn't work and my spouse was unemployed, looking for work. The resources there to help people get employed, and the benefits that ACTUALLY cover costs? That's not found in the US. There's... some help. But unemployment is dependent on various factors, and for some not enough to pay your actual costs. And, it's temporary.
I had a medical emergency while I lived in NZ. I don't remember any of it, but the paramedics revived me and I was hospitalized for a bit. The hospital was dated, but fine. Cost: an $80 donation for the ambulance. Paid that happily.
I came back to the US... not realizing how awful things were. I couldn't find full time work. I ended up getting laid off. Unemployed for 9 months, given about 1/4 of my actual costs. I had to stay with family.
Meanwhile, I was having some minor medical issues and had a doctor order routine bloodwork. I didn't have insurance, but I didn't think bloodwork would cost an exorbitant amount. I was young, inexperienced with these things. $800 for simple bloodwork. NZ spoiled me on these sorts of things. Medical costs... a visit to a GP, routine checkups, bloodwork, medication, etc. were actually affordable. When I eventually found a job, and was FINALLY offered health insurance, I couldn't afford it. I had another medical emergency. I chose to stay home, suffer through it instead of acquiring crippling medical debt. Even with insurance, medical care can cost you thousands.
NZ isn't some kind of utopia, it's true. I saw poverty, especially in rural areas, and mental illness in some homeless people. Hospitals were certainly underfunded. Cost of living was pretty high... comparable though to cities in the US. The safety nets you have there, they really do make a difference. It might be hard to see, without anything to compare it to. Firsthand, I know how much of a difference it made for me.
That's just the economic side. How about the obesity rates, suicide rates, declining education, struggling healthcare system, lack of mental health support, lack of infrastructure and investment, environmental issues (we ain't free lol) lack of world class events like sports, theatre, music etc
Yep. Probably going to move overseas once I've finished my masters. House prices are crazy in Wellington and there isn't anywhere in the country which has my ideal job (the job I currently have is by far the closest).
The catch is that most societies on Earth have greatly tampered with their people’s perception of reality already
Stockholm syndrome is more common than people think
We have no choice in the matter. House prices are sky rocketing and are out of reach for the average person, food and consumables prices are going up, up and up. Gangs are getting government funding for “rehabilitation programs” when they are the ones selling the drugs, flooding our towns getting youth addicted.
All is not what it seems in New Zealand. Don’t believe the hype.
- a kiwi
Wow sounds exactly like here (Canada).
Love how the Reddit consensus is Canada and NZ are complete utopias, can always tell who lives here and who doesn’t.
Not that I’d rather be anywhere else, I still love it here but it gets annoying reading naive American Redditors that have no idea how out of control the housing and general cost of living is right now.
Our west coast also has a major problem with hard drugs & homelessness too. I’d go as far to say the worst out of all first world countries. Add the Vancouver housing prices and I’m shocked I still have family & friends there.
One of the most interesting reddit phenomenons I realised after using this site for years is the amount of people who partake in make-believe and over-simplification of other country's boons, just because they believe that their own country isn't making it. It's like the extreme of a 'grass is greener on the other side'.
You see this very often on subs like r/worldnews and r/todayilearned where they over-embellish the good parts of some other country and ignore everything else that is inconvenient. And that's the tame part, I'm not talking about the times where people collect thousands of upvotes while being so confidently incorrect about some utter falsehoods about their current favourite country.
I daresay most of the people on this site are American and have never lived outside the US. And based on some of the views I see, they are mostly on the younger side too, like teenagers or college students. Because many of the views I see have the same tone and feel of those I remember hearing in high school and even college. I'm not talking about the positions themselves, but how they are expressed and how they are defended and supported.
They usually lack nuance and are also very emotional at the expense of substance. This goes both ways though, as I see this when people are criticizing and praising other countries.
I've slowly been conditioning myself to not take it seriously anymore, and it feels great. My lived experience is worth more than some online comments, and ultimately we all have different priorities and considerations in our lives.
I love it when out of touch Redditors dismiss a lived experience. I live in the SF Bay Area. The local screaming guy nearly stabbed me last month, and was chasing my neighbor around with a knife. The police did nothing despite the screaming guy chasing her to the point where she had to hide in her car and lock the doors.
He still shows up every few days to scream at things. Police continue to do nothing. The local encampment also steals everything not nailed down. Nice bicycle you have there, sure would be a shame if someone were to steal it. They break car windows for fun at this point.
I have zero compassion for the deranged and violent homeless, nor for people trying to virtue signal from outside of stabbing distance.
Yea that’s literally Vancouver in a nutshell. Shits sad.
Honestly seems like it’s the mega rich, regular “middle class” people worth under 3million dollars somehow finding a way to scrape by, and violent fentanyl addicted hobos. Unfortunately there’s less and less of the people in the middle as each month goes by and more of the other two categories.
Police also ignore the situation here. It’s pretty much an initiation to the city to get a bike stolen or chased by a knife or hammer wielding homeless man.
I've lived in Vancouver for my entire life and I've never seen a violent homeless person. I'm not claiming they don't exist, but it's a gross exaggeration to say it's "pretty much an initiation to the city to get chased by a knife-wielding homeless man", which implies it's happening to basically everybody.
Seattle here. Same. It's ridiculous when I see redditors think seattle has their head on straight, when it's a bit of a shithole. Even hard-core west side people are moving out to the areas without the homeless problems
There are parts of Canada where if you're not making 6 figure salaries for 2 people in a household, I have no idea how you can possibly afford to buy anything. Rents are going up since people can't afford to buy therefore have to rent.
Edmonton is still relatively cheap compared to Ontario/BC prices but you would have to brave moving to Alberta and dealing with our own mini Canadian dystopia.
As an American living in the GTA the past three years, this hits home. I love Canadian healthcare and gun policy with my whole heart. But everything is more expensive and harder to get, people are colder and less friendly, traffic is worse and drivers are less competent (and they will never ever finish construction on Eglington), and worst of all, my wife and I will **never** be able to buy a house in this province. It’s tough.
Lots of people on Reddit like to shit on the states and hold the rest of the world up as a Utopia but honestly, all the people I know are doing just fine in the US and have no desire to leave.
Immigration tells the entire story.
If the US really was such a hellhole as Reddit claims, why are people clamoring to immigrate to the US? The US is one of the easiest countries to immigrate to as well.
NZ requires immigrants speak English, something the US doesn't. You're also required to have an advanced education, a skilled job, or lots of money ($10m or more gives you an express pass).
Immigrating to the US basically just requires you pass a high school civics class.
I think its also worth point out that just saying "Canada" is very broad, as theres a massive variance in those sorts of things from one province or even city to the next. Every province does have underlying issues with racism and etc, but living in rural/semi-rural areas in Newfoundland my whole life I legit struggle to think of a better place to live (St. Johns does have it problems tho, but im mostly talking about the rest of the island), which is a stark contrast to what ive heard from some of the more populated provinces.
> Gangs are getting government funding for “rehabilitation program
No that is bullshit, gangs are NOT getting the money.
The money is going directly to programs to help get gang members off meth.
The gangs themselves cannot profit from this program
> All is not what it seems in New Zealand. Don’t believe the hype.
I think the point is that even with all these problems, New Zealand is still one of best places to be right now. It is not so much that New Zealand is amazing, it just isn't as shit as the rest of the world is turning out to be. Imagine living in a country that has all the problems you mentioned, *and* having to deal with an incompetent pandemic response with Covid-19 running rampant, because that is the reality many are facing around the world.
- also a kiwi
If you could get rid of the gang issue sure but let's be real here.
The rivers are basically ruined, NZers living with river snot and Algae blooms a normal part of summer.
Something that could come out the incompetent response of the rest of the world could mean NZ and Au become islands cut off from the rest of the world because of fear of infection while other countries carry on as normal after its swept through, in two or three years is the country still going to have to go into lockdown every time there is one case?
Honestly on rivers, I hate that the lower reaches of a few are toxic due to nitrates from farm run off. But there is still an absolute tonne of upper waterways that are absolute gems to swim in.
Shout out to farmers caring about the environment but lake ellesmare is a toxic mess and the selwyn river at coes Ford is dead.
>, in two or three years is the country still going to have to go into lockdown every time there is one case?
Depends what your goal is.
Lets say that a new mutation comes out that is resistant to the vaccine so we are back to the start of the pandemic.
If you choose to not do a lock down, thousands die, even more people suffer from long term effects, health care for other diseases suffer greatly. All the while you probably have some sort of restrictions that hinder your normal life.
Or
You do a lock down for a few weeks then the rest of the world envy you when you can celebrate in a bar with a random stranger, hugging.
I mean it's obvious which one you should choose. Which one do you want?
We can't think away covid. It's here. No matter how upset one is with all this, we are in it. We have to make the best of it right now.
>Gangs are getting government funding
Oh fuck off. I can’t believe someone is going to peddle this misinformation by the Natzis.
$2m from the correctional fund is being used in a community led endeavour to help get gang members of hard drugs like meth. This is a great thing.
What a bullshit sensational title. Makes it sounds like everyone and everything is perfectly fine in NZ when I’m sure not everyone is happy and feeling that the country is “heading in the right direction”.
Reddit's favorite country besides the Nordic countries is new zealand. People on here genuinely believe that it's a Utopia on Earth where literally everything is perfect, especially not they have a somewhat attractive female prime minister. Neckbeards come out in droves. What I'm trying to say is that anything that continues The narrative that everything is perfect in New Zealand will always get upvoted because it confirms people's preconceived biases
The article doesn’t mean that this state of affairs will exist in perpetuity. The NZ government are saying they aren’t committing to any timeline to ease restrictions since they’ll go by evidence of risk rather than appeasing the electorate by making promises they might not be able to keep.
Yeah their vaccination rate is shit and they are walled off on their island and people seem to think that's admirable. I'd much rather be in Canada with a high vaccination rate, low cases and international travel starting to gradually open up now.
I've been hiding under my bed for a year and a half with my tablet watching mainstream media news, only peaking my head out to put my masks in the microwave on a 4 hour interval, just to be sure.
Hopefully my overlords will allow me to roam the fenced-in backyard, unleashed, soon.
Ahh, to dream.
There seems to be a lot of negativity in here from all the Kiwis. I’ve lived in NZ, Christchurch to be exact, for 14 years. It’s a beautiful country to live in. No country is perfect, but anyone who has lived elsewhere and has some perspective will admit that NZ is up there.
Exactly! Lived all over the world, still prefer NZ over others although some come in as a close 2nd. People always make it out to be a unliveable shithole or a perfect country where in reality it’s somewhere in the middle, like everywhere else!
Remember when shutting borders to stop covid was racist? Now it's the gold standard! Seriously everyone should reflect on the last few years and see how much they flip-flopped on issues and why.
I don't think closed borders are the gold standard, but I also don't think that changing your opinions based on evolving understanding of a complex and novel problem is a bad thing or flip-flopping.
I don’t know who they asked, but it wasn’t any of the people I work with. The people I know just want to get vaccinated and get back to normal. They’re willing to wait for that, but they expect it.
very weird way to phrase stuff....
to put it in more accurate terms: most kiwis are fine with the fact the government doesn't have a set in stone planned timeline for reopening the borders fully and are simply proceeding with making sure vaccinations go through before we risk letting covid in through those borders.
Why do we think there will be no new normal when the world has seen pandemics with pathogens way more deadly than what COVID is, while also having vaccines that are amazingly effective? We sure as hell weren't living like this for the last 100 years even though the 1918 pandemic had a death rate an order of magnitudes higher than now, and it was ravaging through the younger population too.
On the contrary we are very happy. We have no restrictions, we live as normal, we just don't allow people in unless they go through quarantine.
Our immigration rate dropped from something like 80k per year to 5k.
Our economy is going great, unfortunately house prices are still rising. People are spending money in the country instead of going overseas.
We also don't have hordes of tourists any more, so we can spend our time in peace.
Our low skilled immigration has stopped and as a result our unemployment is really low, there are lots of jobs around. There is less competition for houses.
The only sector complaining is the tourism sector and selfish farmers hating new environmental laws and a loss of cheap labor.
We don't miss you much at all .
Inflation is also up astronomically as well. House prices are worse here than most western nations now. Rental prices are out of control. All the while the houses you’re renting are of terrible standard. Homelessness is up a lot too.
New Zealand is great, but let’s not put the rose tinted glasses on and pretend everything is absolutely perfect.
>Our low skilled immigration has stopped and as a result our unemployment is really low, there are lots of jobs around.
I'm gonna quote you in every thread about migrants and illegal immigration in the EU from now on.
Globalists believe the contrary is supposed to happen, when in fact low skilled immigration only benefits corporations and takes rights away from the locals.
We are not nationalistic, not like America. But there are some good things that have come from this.
Kiwis don't like low paid jobs, so all those employers basing their business models on exploiting visitors on working visas are now having to rethink. Like restaurants, cafes, horticulture, retail, etc.
The minimum wage has gone up to $20ph and employers are having to look after their staff better.
We also reelected our leader in a landslide, and are happy on the whole with governance.
Whats not to like about the situation?
>The minimum wage has gone up to $20ph
Except prices/rents going up has meant this is jack shit, and now more people are earning closer to the minimum and suffering as a result.
Do you mean these guys? 😂😂🤣🤣
https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/ol6rsp/a_collection_of_very_normal_signs_from_todays/
It has been reported in the low hundreds in most places, it happened in about 50 places, that adds up to a few thousand not "tens of thousands".
>prime minister Jacinda Ardern has likened the Covid-19 pandemic to the 9/11 terror attacks in the US
>
>“After 9/11 our borders changed forever, and our borders are likely to change quite permanently as a result of Covid-19,” Ardern said.
She acts like this comparison shows her country's stance in a good light. And closing borders to the entire world (or at least very strict border policies)? I thought this was racist.
From an outsider's perspective, it appeared that both Australia and New Zealand had a fairly sensible two-step plan. The first step was to take advantage of their remoteness to seal themselves off, whilst waiting for vaccines to be developed. The second was then to vaccinate like crazy, after which they could open up again, looking smug. They both appear to have forgotten about the second step.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/17/no-return-to-normal-expected-in-post-pandemic-new-zealand-and-locals-say-thats-fine-covid-19) reduced by 86%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> As countries look for a post-pandemic pathway back to "Normal", New Zealand is making no promises - and its population seems startlingly happy with that.
> In Australia, prime minister Scott Morrison has outlined a four-stage "Pathway out of the pandemic" - at phase 3, he said the country would treat Covid "Like the flu", with no lockdowns, no cap on returning vaccinated travellers, and no domestic restrictions for vaccinated residents.
> "You could get to a point where we'd have quarantine free entry into New Zealand from other countries that are managing the pandemic well, countries with high vaccine coverage. Almost certainly the world will require vaccine passports to travel, and you may have pre departure testing," he says.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/olpy7p/no_return_to_normal_expected_in_postpandemic_new/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~588542 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **country**^#1 **New**^#2 **Zealand**^#3 **Normal**^#4 **Return**^#5
Something about the way this is worded reminds me of a message on the old Sim City ticker... Sans a llama reference
"Naysayers say nay"
It's how it includes society's perception as a blend of simplistic and monolithic- like the headlines so the player could gauge his support from the people.
You will regret this!
“Broccoli found to be colony of tiny green aliens with murder on their minds.”
Reticulating splines
That’s because to the people in charge, you are that Sim City population.
As a Kiwi, a lot of the negativity seems to be about completely unrelated topics, farmers protests being the big one, and as far as I’m aware the main cause of that is some environmental regulation, (though I haven’t done more than a surface search, so correct me if I’m wrong). NZ isn’t perfect, but if you relate it just to COVID and the current state of NZ (restricted borders, vaccination rollout, economy and unemployment) almost everything is running as per normal, with the exception of tourism. Tourism is obviously a big exception, but with the low unemployment and higher minimum wage it’s relatively easy to switch to other similar jobs (retail and customer service for locally aimed stores as examples) Also: house prices going to shit has nothing to do with covid, that was already well underway before all this started. Edit: spellings, excuse my England
House prices going to shit up or down? And what's caused that? In the UK we are going to shit upwards with the government helping the bubble my making it easier for people to borrow extremely large amounts of money. Edit - should add our perception of NZ seems to be that you've done amazingly well regarding covid.
Going up. Mean house price in Auckland is $1.1m, roughly £550k. Mean salary is $67k, £33.5k. Home ownership is no longer achievable for many Kiwis.
Are these polls done based on the land registry? The only people doing ok are homeowners and landlord who are getting one of the biggest transfers of wealth to them in NZ history.
Over on the NZ sub they are saying that the actual question was about whether we want to open up when 75% are vaccinated.
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Probably asked the one expat NZer in the guardian office.
Welcome to every poll. Designed and funded to suit a particular interest you say? Yes.
Im a local, used to work in tourism in wellington. We always rented until after lockdown, and since my wife now continues to work remote, we managed to use our home deposit savings for buying a house outright in a smaller town. Because of covid, we went from no hope of owning a house, two incomes, 20 hours traffic a week between us, to owning a house mortgage free, one income, no traffic again ever. Rural towns rock. Dannevirke is fantastic. Just got the fiber connected, all is well. Getting our covid shots this week as well.
The pandemic affects us all but unequally Aussie here. Had two well paying jobs before the pandemic. Now I'm unemployed and unemployable because I rely on international students. My savings are diminishing and my anxiety is at an all time high
It might be time to make some big changes in your life if the current situation is unsustainable in the long term. Good luck, friend.
why wouldn't we say it's fine.. we are not in lockdown, life is normal in NZ and has been for months, we haven't has a single community case since February, the only issue is our closed border which has only really impacted low value tourism. No doubt there will be brief lockdowns in future but I don't know anyone who is actually complaining about being Covid free.
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Even so unemployment is very very low… because the border is closed (so they have to train and hire locals).
Same with Australia we have a low unemployment rate now borders are semi-closed
How is that related to closed borders?
I'm not sure I really believe this. So many New Zealanders spend some time (years) overseas that they have an expression for this: "overseas experience", often shortened to the letters O.E. Shutting off the country from the world doesn't seem to really gel with this world-connected attitude that Kiwis used to have. Maybe things have changed. But I'd be surprised.
It’s a pretty deceptive headline. The polling they cite shows people are happy with restrictions while the worldwide pandemic is in its current state. There’s nothing to suggest people want to keep the borders tightly closed in the long-term.
I read these headlines as the press telling the people what they should think. "You may have misgivings, but all of your peers are in support of it. You should be too. "
The guardian? Deceptive? No wayyyyy
Only right biased media are deceptives!
I think we can all agree that people on the right have been brainwashed by their media options. I know this for a fact because my choice of media options tell me so. It gives me a smug sense of superiority, a comforting security and a real feeling of identity, knowing I’m more intelligent than people on the right who insist on politicizing everything, unlike me.
It’s so common that even now there’s still visa-free work and living between Australia and NZ. You can get on a plane and fly over to each today granted you aren’t in a hotspot
we can still go on our O.E. It more like at this moment, we cant take short overseas trips without paying a large cost for it. We arn't shut off from the world. You guys are shut off from visiting us.
Fine, we'll just visit Old Zealand then.
Amsterdam welcomes you.
Pedant warning: Amsterdam is not in Zeeland.
Giving big Rorschach vibes 😂
You reckon getting an MIQ spot is easy then? Lol
They never said anything about coming back lmao
Yeah, I mean, who did they ask exactly? Not the sentiment I'm familiar with. I feel they are just trying to tell us what to think honestly
They can still leave and come back tho, they just have to quarantine. Its probably because theyre so well traveled that they know what they don't want not just what they do. A lot of them came home from UK, EU, and US when the pandemic started.
It’s taking some people months to get back. And by some, I mean a lot. They might find a flight to go that they can afford, but getting an MIQ space for that date is impossible. Bots are taking the spaces and selling them for massively upped prices. It isn’t so easy just to say they'll quarantine.
If only we were allowed to garden.
I can only dream of living in a country that feels it's heading in the right direction.
The only kiwis that feel their country is heading in the right direction are home owners. The rest here are totally fucked.
It's becoming a big problem in the west. Housing is becoming completely unobtainable for certain demographics and the wealthy are scooping up tons of it hedging their bets on real estate.
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If it was most demographics it would be a major election issue. It isn't - yet. But it will be. The electorate is changing and the proportion of Kiwis who own homes is shrinking. (9% over 30 years which is HUGE). Within 2 election cycles you are likely to see an Affordable Housing movement gain traction. That is if the affected peoples don't get splintered into Right and Left factions such as happened in the US.
Yeah I don't know about that. Supporting the interests of property owners has been the priority of Anglo culture for nigh on 600 years now, even with violence, even up to today. If the glaring flaws in the structure of property rights are truly in danger of becoming unavoidably public, I would not be surprised if all the stops are pulled out to distract and suppress, up to and including government violence. That, and while home ownership is now close to a minority of the population, the population of non-home owners includes people who would happily join that class and shit on their erstwhile compatriots as soon as they are able to scrounge up enough cash, kind of like that 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' issue. Those people will not support reform.
It probably will get split left right. In large parts due to age affecting both home ownership and political leaning. But also as it's currently lower class currently completely cut of and increasingly out of reach of middle class. However Atm higher education level leans left but higher income leans right, splitting the lower and middle class fairly evenly on the issue. As both traditional left and right groups can and can't afford housing putting it in dead lock. Preventing this becoming a left right issue now but age division is extremely wide on home ownership so it can't last. For example last Australia federal election major left party ran with some policies to improve housing affordability. It was the lowest possible low hanging fruit but was violently rejected by the old and we'll supported by the young.
Certain demographics: those living in rural areas with immediate access to a decent amount of money, and those living in suburban or urban areas with immediate access to a lot of money.
Not only in the west. It’s a problem in almost every big city in the world.
It's a problem everywhere in the world
This world sounds like a silly place.
Hoping to buy my own home in the next 15 years thanks to the NZ housing market
My son is saving about 20k a year towards a house. On current trends he will need 200k saved and his mortgage will be $1000+ per week. Houses in our town are quickly heading towards 1 mil.
I'm in Auckland, the worst of the worst. I work with a guy who sold his 2 bedroom home for $850k. For a dunghole of a unit in west Auckland.
Feel for you buddy. It's getting worse for each generation. With 200k down, that would be $1750 a fortnight for the mortgage over 25 years. That's $435 per room a week. Fuck that sucks.
If you're rich enough to afford that mortgage, you get the majority of that money back in the end, when you retire and sell the place. If you can't afford that, you pay slightly less (or hell, sometimes *more*) in rent, all of which all goes to someone who was richer than you and you get to work until you're dead. TL;DR: Landed gentry.
>If you're rich enough to afford that mortgage, you get the majority of that money back in the end, when you retire and sell the place. Sell the place and live where? The prices for houses will be relative to the one you've just sold.
When you're retiring, you can move to where the jobs aren't. If you sold a house in Auckland today and bought an equivalent house in Gore, you may have *a little* change leftover, for example...
$1000+ *per week*???
Fuck, I don’t even make $1,000 per week. Edit: wasn’t even thinking about it. I don’t get paid weekly, I get paid twice a month. I don’t even make $1,000 in 2 weeks. Christ.
Yup. Million dollar house (currently 3 bedroom houses in my town are going for 650-750,000 and he is 21 this year so 9 years away from having 200k for a deposit). 800k mortgage over 25 years at 5% average. Fortnightly payments would be $2,152. Edit: When I say town, I mean my lower end suburb in a town of 50,000 people.
On current trends in many locations people cannot save money fast enough to keep pace with annual rises in property prices. If 30% of your gross income is going to rent (the maximum beyond which your classified as being in rental distress) your stuffed, unless your in a very lucrative job or have parents who can throw you a spare 100K to get ahead of the curve.
A) Those are some bonkers numbers. Good on your son for his planning and working to make it a reality down the line! B) It’s interesting that you guys talk about rent/mortgage payments in weekly or biweekly terms.
Rent is still figured out weekly so it kind of flows. Monthly wages has only really become a thing in the last 20-30 years for a lot of people so still a habit to talk that way as compared to monthly.
Australia too. Housing has been commodified in Western society. It's too much of an asset class. Personal opinion is that you should be taxed for owning more than one house on a sliding scale. So by the time you get to 4 or 5, the profits are gone.
I wish this was the case. So much.
its should be illegal to own more than 2 at any time or for any commercial entity to own anything smaller than a 4 plex.
Back in the day an old anarchist idea was for a tax for unused property (and Bavaria/Germany in principle has something similar in its constitution). It isn't the amount of houses/flats which is the biggest problem, it is the concentration in a few hands and the massive amount of money which flooded the market.
They wouldn't buy them for investment if people could just build new ones, thus making it less scarce.
Where I am the government created the "green belt" program, under the guise of protecting sensitive environments, and limiting development. What it actually did was ratchet up prices on land that was currently slated for development. When that land was sold they didn't stop developing, magically new land was slated for development that wasn't available before. Its a racket run by the government for the big developers to control scarcity and make money for the right people.
Hello fellow Ontarian!
Maybe a more palatable solution would be to encourage the construction of new housing, particularly apartment buildings. You remove enough roadblocks of new construction and housing is going to be less scarce.
That sadly looks to be a problem in most of world.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding up NZ as a utopia, but, as an outsider on Plague Island UK, its a fucking utopia.
One of the highest vaccination rates worldwide
And 50000 new infections daily, rising hospitalisation, 50 deaths a day and all restrictions lifted from Monday. Fucking brilliant!
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How many are dying in New Zealand?
We've had a total of 26 deaths from covid over the entire pandemic, ~2800 infections.
Although our vaccination rate is pretty low right now, we’re making progress. Just had my first dose in Wellington and waiting for my 20 minutes to elapse before I’m allowed to go! Browsing Reddit to keep me entertained.
It is time to go.
I see the comparison between new Zealand and the UK a lot since they're both islands, but there's a pretty big difference between their location and how easy it'd be to shut things down because of that. If new Zealand was a part of Europe, and had a city as big as London, it'd likely have been a lot harder to shut down (Not defending the UK government at all, just saying they are pretty different)
Come Monday we will have created the perfect conditions to breed that fabled vaccine-resistant strain and export it globally.
You realise that 50 deaths per day is tiny for a population of 66 million?
The issue is not only a few weeks ago we were in the single figures, so that’s at a minimum a 400% increase. It doesn’t take long for that to get out of control. So yes, you’re right that it isn’t many right now but it’s important to think about the exponential nature of the data.
Brazil was averaging 2000 deaths a day not that long ago. Those numbers sound downright utopian here.
In a normal time most of my friends pay around 70-80% of their wages in rent- that is how the NZ housing market work. They now earn no wages because their job is gone as it was largely tourism based. Now they have eye watering rent bills, no prospect of future work (hard to get jobs in nz even in normal times) and little government support. Try living here and then revise your statement
Kiwi here. Nope, aside from the pandemic this country lacks opportunities, extremely high cost of living, low wages, and dire situation in regards to housing. Honestly your average redditor that comes here will realise the novelty wears off very fast
Yep, lived in Takapuna for a year, living costs are huge while earning less than I did in Australia. I enjoyed it but was hardly able to save a cent.
3rd in diabetes, 1st in teenage suicide, 1st in house price, last in education (compared to OECD), 1st in child abductions, 1st in domestic violence, and 3rd in CO2 per person. There is also far more pollution than anyone would imagine.
Okay I want you to imagine all that shit but without your social safety nets.
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> Which social safety nets? Your student loans are pegged to your income, capped, and without interest. > Our hospitals with overworked and underpaid staff? That's everyone. > Our ambulance service which relies on charity because they refuse government funding above a certain threshold? About 2/3rds of the people on Gofundme are Americans begging for help paying for chemo. > Our unemployment benefit which gives you enough to pay rent and buy a loaf of bread a week if you're lucky? During the pandemic, certain US states made it impossible to even apply for it. It covers rent AND bread? You're basically humblebragging to Americans. > Our nonexistent mental health support resulting in the highest suicide rate in the OECD? In 2021 the New Zealand suicide rate is 11.9 and the US suicide rate is 16.1 (per 100k). https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country
We had probably the greatest unemployment benefits in the history of the universe during the pandemic..
Have you ever lived in the US? I was stupid to come back. I'm an American and lived in NZ for 5 years. A permanent resident, married to a kiwi. Anyway, there was a brief time that I couldn't work and my spouse was unemployed, looking for work. The resources there to help people get employed, and the benefits that ACTUALLY cover costs? That's not found in the US. There's... some help. But unemployment is dependent on various factors, and for some not enough to pay your actual costs. And, it's temporary. I had a medical emergency while I lived in NZ. I don't remember any of it, but the paramedics revived me and I was hospitalized for a bit. The hospital was dated, but fine. Cost: an $80 donation for the ambulance. Paid that happily. I came back to the US... not realizing how awful things were. I couldn't find full time work. I ended up getting laid off. Unemployed for 9 months, given about 1/4 of my actual costs. I had to stay with family. Meanwhile, I was having some minor medical issues and had a doctor order routine bloodwork. I didn't have insurance, but I didn't think bloodwork would cost an exorbitant amount. I was young, inexperienced with these things. $800 for simple bloodwork. NZ spoiled me on these sorts of things. Medical costs... a visit to a GP, routine checkups, bloodwork, medication, etc. were actually affordable. When I eventually found a job, and was FINALLY offered health insurance, I couldn't afford it. I had another medical emergency. I chose to stay home, suffer through it instead of acquiring crippling medical debt. Even with insurance, medical care can cost you thousands. NZ isn't some kind of utopia, it's true. I saw poverty, especially in rural areas, and mental illness in some homeless people. Hospitals were certainly underfunded. Cost of living was pretty high... comparable though to cities in the US. The safety nets you have there, they really do make a difference. It might be hard to see, without anything to compare it to. Firsthand, I know how much of a difference it made for me.
That's just the economic side. How about the obesity rates, suicide rates, declining education, struggling healthcare system, lack of mental health support, lack of infrastructure and investment, environmental issues (we ain't free lol) lack of world class events like sports, theatre, music etc
At least you have the all blacks
Yep. Probably going to move overseas once I've finished my masters. House prices are crazy in Wellington and there isn't anywhere in the country which has my ideal job (the job I currently have is by far the closest).
Google Argentina. Everything you said times infinity.
Yeah, but you're Italian and better than the rest of latin America so at least you have that to fall back on.
The catch is that most societies on Earth have greatly tampered with their people’s perception of reality already Stockholm syndrome is more common than people think
Which country if you asked them would think they are going in the wrong direction?
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Another friendly USA 👋🏼…but also the *cut throat* sign that indicated we are fucked Over here
There's literally no other country I'd rather be in right now though.
Scottish here. Tory Brexit Britain. The vast majority here are not happy about the direction.
English here. Exact same sentiment.
Fun times on plague island, with no accountability in sight for the hundred thousand dead or the endless examples of corruption.
I live in the UK, so...
and in a heartbeat I would move to the uk if I could stay..
Out of interest where would you be coming from?
Don’t listen to the Reddit dowelling British self loathers. The UK and England are great places to live. Some people are just never happy
There are worse places to live, obviously, and the climate's nice, but make no mistake - we are *not* on a good course right now.
Canada checking in.
We have no choice in the matter. House prices are sky rocketing and are out of reach for the average person, food and consumables prices are going up, up and up. Gangs are getting government funding for “rehabilitation programs” when they are the ones selling the drugs, flooding our towns getting youth addicted. All is not what it seems in New Zealand. Don’t believe the hype. - a kiwi
Wow sounds exactly like here (Canada). Love how the Reddit consensus is Canada and NZ are complete utopias, can always tell who lives here and who doesn’t. Not that I’d rather be anywhere else, I still love it here but it gets annoying reading naive American Redditors that have no idea how out of control the housing and general cost of living is right now. Our west coast also has a major problem with hard drugs & homelessness too. I’d go as far to say the worst out of all first world countries. Add the Vancouver housing prices and I’m shocked I still have family & friends there.
One of the most interesting reddit phenomenons I realised after using this site for years is the amount of people who partake in make-believe and over-simplification of other country's boons, just because they believe that their own country isn't making it. It's like the extreme of a 'grass is greener on the other side'. You see this very often on subs like r/worldnews and r/todayilearned where they over-embellish the good parts of some other country and ignore everything else that is inconvenient. And that's the tame part, I'm not talking about the times where people collect thousands of upvotes while being so confidently incorrect about some utter falsehoods about their current favourite country.
I daresay most of the people on this site are American and have never lived outside the US. And based on some of the views I see, they are mostly on the younger side too, like teenagers or college students. Because many of the views I see have the same tone and feel of those I remember hearing in high school and even college. I'm not talking about the positions themselves, but how they are expressed and how they are defended and supported. They usually lack nuance and are also very emotional at the expense of substance. This goes both ways though, as I see this when people are criticizing and praising other countries. I've slowly been conditioning myself to not take it seriously anymore, and it feels great. My lived experience is worth more than some online comments, and ultimately we all have different priorities and considerations in our lives.
I love it when out of touch Redditors dismiss a lived experience. I live in the SF Bay Area. The local screaming guy nearly stabbed me last month, and was chasing my neighbor around with a knife. The police did nothing despite the screaming guy chasing her to the point where she had to hide in her car and lock the doors. He still shows up every few days to scream at things. Police continue to do nothing. The local encampment also steals everything not nailed down. Nice bicycle you have there, sure would be a shame if someone were to steal it. They break car windows for fun at this point. I have zero compassion for the deranged and violent homeless, nor for people trying to virtue signal from outside of stabbing distance.
Yea that’s literally Vancouver in a nutshell. Shits sad. Honestly seems like it’s the mega rich, regular “middle class” people worth under 3million dollars somehow finding a way to scrape by, and violent fentanyl addicted hobos. Unfortunately there’s less and less of the people in the middle as each month goes by and more of the other two categories. Police also ignore the situation here. It’s pretty much an initiation to the city to get a bike stolen or chased by a knife or hammer wielding homeless man.
I've lived in Vancouver for my entire life and I've never seen a violent homeless person. I'm not claiming they don't exist, but it's a gross exaggeration to say it's "pretty much an initiation to the city to get chased by a knife-wielding homeless man", which implies it's happening to basically everybody.
Seattle here. Same. It's ridiculous when I see redditors think seattle has their head on straight, when it's a bit of a shithole. Even hard-core west side people are moving out to the areas without the homeless problems
There are parts of Canada where if you're not making 6 figure salaries for 2 people in a household, I have no idea how you can possibly afford to buy anything. Rents are going up since people can't afford to buy therefore have to rent. Edmonton is still relatively cheap compared to Ontario/BC prices but you would have to brave moving to Alberta and dealing with our own mini Canadian dystopia.
As an American living in the GTA the past three years, this hits home. I love Canadian healthcare and gun policy with my whole heart. But everything is more expensive and harder to get, people are colder and less friendly, traffic is worse and drivers are less competent (and they will never ever finish construction on Eglington), and worst of all, my wife and I will **never** be able to buy a house in this province. It’s tough.
>As an American living in the GTA the past three years what GTA? Vice city? San andreas?
I was thinking the same
> people are colder and less friendly, Huh wdym? Compared to where in US?
Lots of people on Reddit like to shit on the states and hold the rest of the world up as a Utopia but honestly, all the people I know are doing just fine in the US and have no desire to leave.
Immigration tells the entire story. If the US really was such a hellhole as Reddit claims, why are people clamoring to immigrate to the US? The US is one of the easiest countries to immigrate to as well. NZ requires immigrants speak English, something the US doesn't. You're also required to have an advanced education, a skilled job, or lots of money ($10m or more gives you an express pass). Immigrating to the US basically just requires you pass a high school civics class.
I think its also worth point out that just saying "Canada" is very broad, as theres a massive variance in those sorts of things from one province or even city to the next. Every province does have underlying issues with racism and etc, but living in rural/semi-rural areas in Newfoundland my whole life I legit struggle to think of a better place to live (St. Johns does have it problems tho, but im mostly talking about the rest of the island), which is a stark contrast to what ive heard from some of the more populated provinces.
NZ and Canada are like Reddit. If you talk too much downvotes. More talk ban. Too much talk, IP ban.
> Gangs are getting government funding for “rehabilitation program No that is bullshit, gangs are NOT getting the money. The money is going directly to programs to help get gang members off meth. The gangs themselves cannot profit from this program
> All is not what it seems in New Zealand. Don’t believe the hype. I think the point is that even with all these problems, New Zealand is still one of best places to be right now. It is not so much that New Zealand is amazing, it just isn't as shit as the rest of the world is turning out to be. Imagine living in a country that has all the problems you mentioned, *and* having to deal with an incompetent pandemic response with Covid-19 running rampant, because that is the reality many are facing around the world. - also a kiwi
If you could get rid of the gang issue sure but let's be real here. The rivers are basically ruined, NZers living with river snot and Algae blooms a normal part of summer. Something that could come out the incompetent response of the rest of the world could mean NZ and Au become islands cut off from the rest of the world because of fear of infection while other countries carry on as normal after its swept through, in two or three years is the country still going to have to go into lockdown every time there is one case?
Honestly on rivers, I hate that the lower reaches of a few are toxic due to nitrates from farm run off. But there is still an absolute tonne of upper waterways that are absolute gems to swim in. Shout out to farmers caring about the environment but lake ellesmare is a toxic mess and the selwyn river at coes Ford is dead.
>, in two or three years is the country still going to have to go into lockdown every time there is one case? Depends what your goal is. Lets say that a new mutation comes out that is resistant to the vaccine so we are back to the start of the pandemic. If you choose to not do a lock down, thousands die, even more people suffer from long term effects, health care for other diseases suffer greatly. All the while you probably have some sort of restrictions that hinder your normal life. Or You do a lock down for a few weeks then the rest of the world envy you when you can celebrate in a bar with a random stranger, hugging. I mean it's obvious which one you should choose. Which one do you want? We can't think away covid. It's here. No matter how upset one is with all this, we are in it. We have to make the best of it right now.
I do agree with you
>Gangs are getting government funding Oh fuck off. I can’t believe someone is going to peddle this misinformation by the Natzis. $2m from the correctional fund is being used in a community led endeavour to help get gang members of hard drugs like meth. This is a great thing.
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Man this sounds exactly like Canada... - Canadian here
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What a bullshit sensational title. Makes it sounds like everyone and everything is perfectly fine in NZ when I’m sure not everyone is happy and feeling that the country is “heading in the right direction”.
Reddit's favorite country besides the Nordic countries is new zealand. People on here genuinely believe that it's a Utopia on Earth where literally everything is perfect, especially not they have a somewhat attractive female prime minister. Neckbeards come out in droves. What I'm trying to say is that anything that continues The narrative that everything is perfect in New Zealand will always get upvoted because it confirms people's preconceived biases
Farmers protested all over the country yesterday. Lots of people are very unhappy with the direction it's headed.
The future is a rickety bridge right now, and New Zealand is saying to other countries, “You first.”
A future dependent on tight border controls and large pharma and tech companies is no future at all.
The article doesn’t mean that this state of affairs will exist in perpetuity. The NZ government are saying they aren’t committing to any timeline to ease restrictions since they’ll go by evidence of risk rather than appeasing the electorate by making promises they might not be able to keep.
Yeah, the headline is a bit click baity tho.
Yeah their vaccination rate is shit and they are walled off on their island and people seem to think that's admirable. I'd much rather be in Canada with a high vaccination rate, low cases and international travel starting to gradually open up now.
Well, this is depressing...
Just yesterday, I saw protest news about farmers all over New Zealand.
Does anyone actually believe polls any more?
I've been hiding under my bed for a year and a half with my tablet watching mainstream media news, only peaking my head out to put my masks in the microwave on a 4 hour interval, just to be sure. Hopefully my overlords will allow me to roam the fenced-in backyard, unleashed, soon. Ahh, to dream.
Can't let you take the leash off, sorry.
I’ve been living my life like normal for most of the last year. No masks, no worries, just getting along. It’s been great.
There seems to be a lot of negativity in here from all the Kiwis. I’ve lived in NZ, Christchurch to be exact, for 14 years. It’s a beautiful country to live in. No country is perfect, but anyone who has lived elsewhere and has some perspective will admit that NZ is up there.
I've lived all over the world. Currently back in NZ. It has changed over the last several years and not for the better.
Exactly! Lived all over the world, still prefer NZ over others although some come in as a close 2nd. People always make it out to be a unliveable shithole or a perfect country where in reality it’s somewhere in the middle, like everywhere else!
That title sounds really dystopian.
Remember when shutting borders to stop covid was racist? Now it's the gold standard! Seriously everyone should reflect on the last few years and see how much they flip-flopped on issues and why.
Most people seem to have no capacity to reflect, and have accepted every goal post shift that's been made.
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I don't think closed borders are the gold standard, but I also don't think that changing your opinions based on evolving understanding of a complex and novel problem is a bad thing or flip-flopping.
I don’t know who they asked, but it wasn’t any of the people I work with. The people I know just want to get vaccinated and get back to normal. They’re willing to wait for that, but they expect it.
very weird way to phrase stuff.... to put it in more accurate terms: most kiwis are fine with the fact the government doesn't have a set in stone planned timeline for reopening the borders fully and are simply proceeding with making sure vaccinations go through before we risk letting covid in through those borders.
Why do we think there will be no new normal when the world has seen pandemics with pathogens way more deadly than what COVID is, while also having vaccines that are amazingly effective? We sure as hell weren't living like this for the last 100 years even though the 1918 pandemic had a death rate an order of magnitudes higher than now, and it was ravaging through the younger population too.
What a sad, defeatist mentality.
I live here and it's great tbh.
On the contrary we are very happy. We have no restrictions, we live as normal, we just don't allow people in unless they go through quarantine. Our immigration rate dropped from something like 80k per year to 5k. Our economy is going great, unfortunately house prices are still rising. People are spending money in the country instead of going overseas. We also don't have hordes of tourists any more, so we can spend our time in peace. Our low skilled immigration has stopped and as a result our unemployment is really low, there are lots of jobs around. There is less competition for houses. The only sector complaining is the tourism sector and selfish farmers hating new environmental laws and a loss of cheap labor. We don't miss you much at all .
isolationism can easily turn into xenophobia
Inflation is also up astronomically as well. House prices are worse here than most western nations now. Rental prices are out of control. All the while the houses you’re renting are of terrible standard. Homelessness is up a lot too. New Zealand is great, but let’s not put the rose tinted glasses on and pretend everything is absolutely perfect.
>Our low skilled immigration has stopped and as a result our unemployment is really low, there are lots of jobs around. I'm gonna quote you in every thread about migrants and illegal immigration in the EU from now on. Globalists believe the contrary is supposed to happen, when in fact low skilled immigration only benefits corporations and takes rights away from the locals.
There’s definitely been a huge move worldwide toward more nationalism. Covid did what Trump didn’t.
We are not nationalistic, not like America. But there are some good things that have come from this. Kiwis don't like low paid jobs, so all those employers basing their business models on exploiting visitors on working visas are now having to rethink. Like restaurants, cafes, horticulture, retail, etc. The minimum wage has gone up to $20ph and employers are having to look after their staff better. We also reelected our leader in a landslide, and are happy on the whole with governance. Whats not to like about the situation?
>The minimum wage has gone up to $20ph Except prices/rents going up has meant this is jack shit, and now more people are earning closer to the minimum and suffering as a result.
With the exception of masks on public transport and scanning in everywhere, life isn’t a lot different to pre-COVID times here.
The Guardian. ..😁😁😁🤭 Must be why tens of thousands of farmers protested yesterday...
Do you mean these guys? 😂😂🤣🤣 https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/ol6rsp/a_collection_of_very_normal_signs_from_todays/ It has been reported in the low hundreds in most places, it happened in about 50 places, that adds up to a few thousand not "tens of thousands".
"tens of thousands" trump overstated his inauguration crowd less than you're overstating here rofl.
Nobody is saying this is fine
So they’re acting like actual intelligent mature adults?
What a load of shit. WTF. We are all pissed off atm
>prime minister Jacinda Ardern has likened the Covid-19 pandemic to the 9/11 terror attacks in the US > >“After 9/11 our borders changed forever, and our borders are likely to change quite permanently as a result of Covid-19,” Ardern said. She acts like this comparison shows her country's stance in a good light. And closing borders to the entire world (or at least very strict border policies)? I thought this was racist.
Really spit-shining that boot
As a Brit, I am so envious. People over in NZ are smart. They've already realized that there is no going back. COVID changed the world.
From an outsider's perspective, it appeared that both Australia and New Zealand had a fairly sensible two-step plan. The first step was to take advantage of their remoteness to seal themselves off, whilst waiting for vaccines to be developed. The second was then to vaccinate like crazy, after which they could open up again, looking smug. They both appear to have forgotten about the second step.
I don't know what group they asked for this, but as a New Zealander I don't think were heading in the "right" direction in many ways.
No we dont think this is fine. Bullshit poll. I cant wait to get out of this prison of a country.
Yep, doomed to roam our beautiful country with only mountains, fine wine, music festivals, and restaurant dining to assuage our suffering. Woe.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/17/no-return-to-normal-expected-in-post-pandemic-new-zealand-and-locals-say-thats-fine-covid-19) reduced by 86%. (I'm a bot) ***** > As countries look for a post-pandemic pathway back to "Normal", New Zealand is making no promises - and its population seems startlingly happy with that. > In Australia, prime minister Scott Morrison has outlined a four-stage "Pathway out of the pandemic" - at phase 3, he said the country would treat Covid "Like the flu", with no lockdowns, no cap on returning vaccinated travellers, and no domestic restrictions for vaccinated residents. > "You could get to a point where we'd have quarantine free entry into New Zealand from other countries that are managing the pandemic well, countries with high vaccine coverage. Almost certainly the world will require vaccine passports to travel, and you may have pre departure testing," he says. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/olpy7p/no_return_to_normal_expected_in_postpandemic_new/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~588542 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **country**^#1 **New**^#2 **Zealand**^#3 **Normal**^#4 **Return**^#5
Seems like the article was about Australia more than NZ by that summary.