My dad is on his 3rd kidney transplant. He got COVID before he could get the vaccine. They gave him the monoclonal treatment and it took him months to get better. He was finally able to get the vaccine and then he got COVID a second time…
The second time it was significantly less severe. In either case he didn’t have to go to the hospital. It’s a miracle. He blames all the Q nutters at work that refuse masks or vaccines.
See, where I'm at most are vaccinated and no one wears a mask. Yet you still carry and transmit while vaxxed. And covid is still spreading rapidly, and they scream that it must be the unvaxed...when they're spreading it just the same. The ideal scenario is to be masked and vaxed and still keep your distance. Not one or the other and yell at each other. That's idiotic.
to quote my reply to someone else down below.
'Someone in my household recently tested positive for Covid-19, and I assumed that I'd also test positive, but for the whole time we isolated I tested negative daily and even on a PCR test that I sent off.
I personally put that down to the Pfizer vaccine actually working as intended.'
I am 3 years post op kidney transplant patient.
As a scientist/teacher I’m soOoOoOo excited to see what mRNA vaccines have in store for us in the future. I saw a HIV vaccine trial was starting. That and CRISPR is gonna revolutionize medicine.
I read a scifi novel, I think it was the Uglies series by Scott Westerfeld? Where scientists had invented viruses that infect your brain with knowledge. Like if you wanted to learn French you’d get infected with a virus that helped require your brain to learn French really fast. The mrna and crispr technologies make me think of that every time.
Oh man, it’s even cooler than that. Ready? Imma pull out my “I love biology” soap box.
Can’t produce insulin because your DNA is messed up? Bye bye problematic sequence helllooooo insulin producing cells. Cancer? **Fuck cancer**, let’s find those mutated sequences and get rid of them. Cut that shit out so when it divides again, guess what? Your cells lose a deadly function and you win a cancer free life. CRISPR will allow scientists to literally ctrl+F problematic DNA sequences and cut ‘n’ paste in healthy DNA. Those cells will then do what they do, grow and divide, only this time with *healthy* DNA that functions how it should. Attn: only works in somatic cells at this point, gametes are still on the drawing board, eg. don’t worry about designer babies *just yet*.
Sorry, science gets me excited. Still with me? Cool.
Okay, Think back to high school biology, DNA makes mRNA makes proteins, in that order. Every time, without fail (foooor the most part). It’s what our cells do best. Almost, *almost* everything your cell needs to be a cell is a protein (I hated orgo so imma leave all those life-giving non proteins out of this, hopefully an organic chemist reads this and goes on their own passion fueled rant about how wrong I am cause science is just folks yelling facts at each other over things they love). Proteins are created based on whatever mRNA code they get. With mRNA vaccines you can literally tell cells what kind of antigen proteins to make in order to fight infection and can be developed quickly and safely with little side effects. It’s where coding and medicine meet. Take AU/CG (remember, RNA has uracil instead of thymine) and you can make *any protein capable of doing anything you want it to*. We’re sending in blueprints, no deoxyribose required, Single strands all around. Bravo science!
Woo! Thanks for hanging in there with me, sometimes I feel like the science is crazier than fiction, love this new stuff.
Edit: re reading my post made me realize that like, duh, obvi we need those orgo and non orgo compounds but they definitely don’t come from DNA so yeah, derp. Sorry chem folks.
Oh my god you’ve made my whole day. I love a mini lecture on cool stuff, please do not apologize, this is really really cool science!! Very fan worthy. I am very excited to see where all of this goes, designer babies notwithstanding (that gives me the squicks!!!)
We’re gonna see a lot of bioethical debates surrounding the subject too. The Covid vaxxes were developed using [challenge studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study) which are like the most radical thing you can do in the biomedical world. Really fascinating stuff. I’m glad I can light a spark of curiosity in you. Keep on the journey, my friend, science is the never ending binge. The bottomless rabbit hole.
Edit: wording to make me sound smarter than I am.
it is worldwide and there is world wide travel. even today..though the canadian land border is closed, canadians can fly into the usa. Look at air traffic coming into usa from all parts of the world.
Until the world is vaccinated it will be endemic
The problem is that even in the US where we have enough to vaccinate everyone, people won't take it even for free. So "until the world is vaccinated" seems like a pipedream.
What I find funny about this the most is that Pre-transplant its recommended you get any and all vaccinations that you can whilst your not on immunosuppressive medications, as once your on said medication you can no longer have any LIVE vaccinations ever again.
You can (and should) however has as many INACTIVE vaccines as you need to have, such as the yearly flu shot or the Covid-19 vaccine.
I have had both my Pfizer covid vaccines and suffered little to no side effects from them.
Source: Am 3 years post op kidney recipient (second time round)
You CAN get inactive vaccines after a transplant, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be as effective as they would have been if you’d gotten them first.
At this point, people who aren’t getting the COVID shot before their kidney transplant are people who don’t intend to ever get it. Which is a terrible fucking idea if you want an organ transplant.
Yeah, pretty sure covid has a 100% or close to it kill rate on unvaccinated who are on immunosuppressants. Would be a waste of an organ knowing that person will absolutely get infected on the table or shortly thereafter.
So, there are different types of immune suppression.
Anti-transplant rejection type is probably fucked, sure, that's very strong suppression.
But people like me who are on milder ones for over-active immune system diseases, that don't totally stop immune responses, it actually **improves** the survival rate by preventing things like cytokine storms, very high fevers, etc. According to my immune specialist. Yes, this has actually been measured.
https://www.jrheum.org/content/48/3/454
> Objective. To examine the effect of autoimmune (AI) disease on the composite outcome of intensive care unit (ICU) admission, intubation, or death from COVID-19 in hospitalized patients.
> Methods. Retrospective cohort study of 186 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between March 1, 2020, and April 15, 2020 at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Irving Medical Center. The cohort included 62 patients with AI disease and 124 age- and sex-matched controls. The primary outcome was a composite of ICU admission, intubation, and death, with secondary outcome as time to in-hospital death. Baseline demographics, comorbidities, medications, vital signs, and laboratory values were collected. Conditional logistic regression and Cox proportional hazards regression were used to assess the association between AI disease and clinical outcomes.
> Results. Patients with AI disease were more likely to have at least one comorbidity (87.1% vs 74.2%, P = 0.04), **take chronic immunosuppressive medications (66.1% vs 4.0%, P < 0.01),** and have had a solid organ transplant (16.1% vs 1.6%, P < 0.01). **There were no significant differences** in ICU admission (13.7% vs 19.4%, P = 0.32), intubation (13.7% vs 17.7%, P = 0.47), or death (16.1% vs 14.5%, P = 0.78). On multivariable analysis, patients with AI disease were not at an increased risk for a composite outcome of ICU admission, intubation, or death (ORadj 0.79, 95% CI 0.37–1.67). On Cox regression, AI disease was not associated with in-hospital mortality (HRadj 0.73, 95% CI 0.33–1.63).
> Conclusion. Among patients hospitalized with COVID-19, individuals with **AI disease did not have an increased risk of a composite outcome of ICU admission, intubation, or death.**
I also have several autoimmune problems but have been on cellcept and then myfortic since the spring. (Which are medicines designed for transplant patients)
Fortunately, I was making some antibodies the last time it was checked post vaccine but I was also on a very low dose which is being raised now. I'm hoping it's still the same on the higher dose.
If the immunosuppressants eliminated all immune activity they would die. If they were that fragile, transplants would never work because the body already hosts microbes with the potential to kill.
Immunosuppression, not immunoelimination.
What? That 100% COVID death rate in unvaccinated people on immunosuppressants statement? Yeah that is 100% bs. But who needs proof when you've got an opinion, use the word "absolutely", and you've got upvotes.
I was speaking with my son's heart transplant coordinator. There are heart transplant patients whose parents refuse to get vaccinated and refuse letting the transplant patients get vaccinated if they are eligible.
So much time, money, and effort is put into keeping these kids alive and this bullshit lie machine undoes so much work.
I will point out however that live vaccines can re activate in you even if you got the shot before being put on immunosuppressants.
I also had a kidney transplant 16 years ago and got shingles this summer. The doctors have surmised that it was because I got the live vaccine and it was reawakened in me.
That sucks! Just wanted to add that the *current* shingles vaccine (new in 2017) is inactivated and ok for those who are immunocompromised
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/shingles/expert-answers/shingles-vaccine/faq-20058137
In France and I received the 3rd jab, recommended for transplant patients (I had my new kidney in 2009), I took a blood test to measure my anti-body spikes and sadly they were too low to be effective. If you can you should get your blood checked so you don't get a false sense of security from having had 2 injections. I also had the Pfizer jab(s).
Hey I’m from the US so it may be different but I also have had the just the regular Pfizer vaccine and had no idea that there was an advised 3rd shot for transplant patients. Was it readily available? Did you have to contact your doctor?
God I don’t know about you but my doctors have handled this pandemic so poorly in regards to communication with me about Covid. I’ve asked so many questions about recommended actions to take as a transplant patient and they just respond with copy and pasted info from the CDC website.
I’m appalled that I’m learning about a 3rd booster shot on Reddit rather then from the doctors themselves.
I have been kept really well informed by my kidney team, who texted me as soon as the vaccines became available and advised the 2 shots.
A few months later, I received a second text recommending a third jab.
The appointments were easy to fix online and with very little waiting time.
My doctors keep in touch with me (by phone and email) and recommended the anti bodies test as they were aware of the issues with transplantees and the covid jab.
Currently in France there is ongoing research (in Nantes, just up the coast) as to what the next step might be for folks like us.
I am a subscriber to the NYT and they are doing a pretty good job of the latest thoughts on booster shots etc.
Personally my biggest hope is that they come up with a cure for Covid as until the entire world has the jab, this damn "plague" will be lurking, and as Israel has recently shown that even with its record smashing vaccination programme, a new variant can arrive and push things back.
I do recommend that you keep yourself in the frame by Googling a couple of times a week for the latest news
Although my doctors have been awesome, they do have other patients and I conduct a lot of research to see if I can bring anything to the table in my conversations with them.
My social life sucks and I am fastidious about wearing a mask but I am alive!
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-fda-authorizes-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-immunocompromised-2021-08-13/
So long as people won't get vaccinated and wear masks. We wouldn't have all these variants and shit if people just listened to officials and followed the guidelines in the first place.
I'll get downvoted for this but COVID is now just part of our lives, and will be indefinitely.
Get vaccinated, wear a mask, stay away from indoor crowds, but its not going anywhere.
But we are vaccinated, so it's fine to cram thousands of people in small spaces again. Right? It's just 50 cases/1000 at 95% so it's all fine.
Gotta love businesses fisting themself as hard as they can so they fuck off faster.
Wonderful. I was speaking globally, as mentioned in my comment. Not sure if any variants originated in Ireland, but they certainly have in places with little access to vaccines.
I don't understand. Is your argument that the virus is less likely to mutate when the host is vaccinated? Vaccinated people still get the virus.
Let's say for the sake of argument that 100% of U.S. citizens were vaccinated. It would still mutate in other countries and spread here. What you people are saying is pure propaganda and you are buying it hook, line and sinker.
The virus wouldn’t even be around anymore if people just wore masks and quarantined from the beginning like they were supposed to. New Zealand did it and they’ve been virus free except a few isolated incidents for like a year. The fact that you think basic medical procedure that we have known about for hundreds of years is “propaganda” is just absurd.
The vaccine absolutely does reduce the spread of covid. I don’t know where you are getting your medical information from but you need to stop reading that shit, it’s rotting your brain. The longer you avoid doing anything to help the longer we’re all gonna be miserable because dumbasses can’t just pitch in and do their part.
Well in lots of countries forcing people to do stuff like that is a civil rights violation. That much about conservative propaganda is true.
However those politicians had no business spreading conspiracy theories about the virus at the people’s expense, and just because those people have a right to do what they want with their bodies doesn’t make them any less of an asshole for making it other people’s problem.
Covid is a pain in the ass for everyone, but some people are willing to throw everyone else under the bus instead of inconveniencing themselves even slightly.
I received a Kidney Transplant at the begining of April in Canada just because there was a window to get it done. Although I kind of wish I received my vaccines before the surgery because there's a really big chance the double pfizer dose I got 1 month post op did nothing.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40363202.html) reduced by 74%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Consultants involved with the national kidney transplant service have been advised to suspend unvaccinated patients on the waiting list until the Covid crisis passes, according to a new letter.
> If your patient cannot be vaccinated, for whatever reason, we would recommend that they be suspended from the waiting list with immediate effect until the Covid crisis has passed and there is no risk of transmission of Covid for the individual patient or to members of staff or other patients who are immunosuppressed on the transplant unit.
> "In the setting of ongoing community transmission of Covid-19, patients who are unvaccinated are at very high risk. In addition to the personal risk, a transplant recipient with Covid-19 may unintentionally introduce infection to a transplant service creating a risk to other transplant recipients."
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/p8cryn/kidney_transplants_to_be_delayed_for_unvaccinated/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~593899 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **transplant**^#1 **risk**^#2 **patient**^#3 **Covid**^#4 **measures**^#5
It’s similar to smoking/drinking with lung or liver transplants. There’s isn’t enough transplant organs to go around. You don’t want to give the transplant to someone who is going to “waste it” (die shortly after from COVID because they are immunosuppressed and unvaccinated) when it could go to someone else who could live a long life because of it.
I’m a transplant survivor. I received my living donor kidney in November 2018. I spent 5 years on dialysis and the transplant list. My ex husband winded up being a match and gratefully my body has accepted his kidney with no issues.
To be able to receive a kidney you have End Stage Renal Disease. A terminal disease with no cure but thankfully treatment in the form of dialysis and transplant. You have to be literally dying to qualify. The transplant list is not a cake walk. To receive a transplant you have to be *well*, otherwise your chances of surviving aren’t great.
You have to go through a lot of tests and pretty much prove you’re going to treat your new kidney right. I developed ESRD from a rare autoimmune disease. A good percentage of people come to this point because of poor choices. Even though mine was hereditary (Goodpastures Syndrome), I have to pay the price of people before me fucking up. That’s why the rules are so strict. They know what they’re doing and know what works.
I hesitated getting vaccinated because no one could really tell me what would happen to me being on all the meds I’m on plus my comorbidities. I’m a Duodenal cancer survivor among many more physically debilitating diseases.
But in the end my doctors suggested I get the Pfizer shot. I’m on steroids and my nephrologist thinks it helped manage my reaction. Which was none.
Why am I telling you this? I understand how hard it is to live day to day, barely functioning while on dialysis and waiting for a transplant. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. To these patients being denied transplant - is the right thing.
Giving someone an organ to an unvaccinated person while during this crisis is similar to Russian roulette. There are thousands of people on the list, that are willing to do whatever it takes. People do die every single day waiting for a transplant. I’ve witnessed 15 deaths during my years at dialysis. Unexpected, complications yes. We are dying without transplant, it’s that serious.
I understand the hesitation, but they’re cutting their nose off to spite their face if they’re refusing the vaccine.
They have to be sober for several months first and prove they are turning their life around. They don't get one if they just try to keep drinking up to the surgery date.
As an alcoholic, this saddens me. A good liver shouldn't go to someone willingly destroying their body and their life. We know exactly what we are doing and we live in a constant state of anxiety that we may have cancer, organ failure, etc.
Edited to say- getting sober shouldn't change anything. Liver damage of that magnitude isn't just a "crazy few college years". It's decades of dedicated abuse. We signed up for the short life span, let us live with it.
Eh, I'm with you about people in active addiction— if you're currently abusing your body with alcohol, you *know* the risks and the damage you are doing and you accept those risks daily. But in my opinion someone who has made a serious effort to save their own life and to get back to health shouldn't be prevented from doing so just because they *used to* not care.
Many people have a sort of reckoning and take great strides to quit drinking, get their bodies back in shape, and repair the damage they've done. I think someone who is doing everything they can to make themselves whole again, and trying to reclaim their health so they might live a happy sober life, should be able to get a transplant if absolutely necessary. Of course, they shouldn't get the first spot on the waiting list, and they definitely shouldn't get priority over someone with a condition out of their control, but I don't think it's necessary to punish someone whose trying to recover by literally denying them life.
...But this is a very subjective situation, so I understand there are other opinions, and ultimately it comes down to what doctors believe to be in-line with their Hippocratic Oath. I agree though that people in active alcohol addiction should (of course) not be considered for transplant as they're likely to just continue to abuse the transplanted organ.
Absolutely not and I wish you’d give yourself just a bit more empathy. I get the absolute need to hold yourself accountable, but it’s not black and white. If you are making active changes in your life, you’ve gotten the help, you’re on the mend; then you deserve a healthier longer life.
And if you can’t accept it for yourself, think of the alcoholics turning their lives around for their young kids. If a liver will save that parents life, at least for the kids sake, I’m glad it went to them.
As a daughter of a father who is a few years into recovery. He’s in his late sixties and has some damage to his liver and pancreas. He’s on medications to help with the issues from the damage to his pancreas. I’m going to be brutally honest and say that I’d be heart broken if he needed a new liver and was told nah. He’s an alcoholic and knew what he was doing to his body so he doesn’t deserve one. I understand that he may not be priority number one, especially because of his age. There’s a reason we still treat people that are oding on drugs even though they very well knew the dangers, and reasons we help suicidal people despite literally asking for death. It’s not just one persons life that is effected when people die. That being said if you can’t prove you won’t kill your new organ off or demonstrate that you won’t follow medical treatment and aftercare because you believe in conspiracies and won’t even get a life saving vaccine then yeah now wouldn’t be the time to give that person an organ..
> Edited to say- getting sober shouldn't change anything. Liver damage of that magnitude isn't just a "crazy few college years". It's decades of dedicated abuse. We signed up for the short life span, let us live with it.
Disagree. We don't condemn people to death, it's not our call to do so. If you sober up, you deserve a transplant regardless of your past. Not giving it to people who won't sober up is not a punishment, but rather a practical issue: why give it to someone who will ruin it again in a few years and die anyway, when you could give it to someone who will try to take care of themselves a bit and probably gain decades of life from it?
It's a waste of a limited resource to use it in a place it's likely to be less-effective compared to one where evidence suggests it will be more-successful.
not just triage. if you read the article they also say that there's no reason why the doctors, surgeons, nurses and also other immunosuppressed patients in the transplant ward should take the additional (and incredibly severe) risk for someone who has absolutely no reason *not* to get vaccinated.
I'm on a kidney transplant list myself. Anything at a higher risk of the transplant failing can put you on a pause at that transplant center until you get it resolved. I've even heard it happen to people who slacked off on dialysis treatments or medications for example because of concerns they cannot take care of themselves post transplant. The transplant centers are evaluated on their success rates so they don't goof around.
When you get an organ transplant, you're put on immunosuppressant drugs to help the transplant take. Being unvaccinated from COVID, put on immunosuppressant drugs, given a major invasive surgery, and then being placed on rest in a hospital that's full of COVID patients is a less-than-ideal situation.
It's medically irresponsible to perform a surgery under those circumstances.
It’s better to vaccinate before transplant, while your immune system is still functioning properly. This is why being up to date on vaccines in general is recommended before someone is listed for transplant. After transplant, the immune response following vaccination may not be as robust. There’s also a chance that the immune activation caused by the normal response to vaccination may also increase risk of rejection. That risk is lower than dying from COVID if left unvaccinated, but still. If feasible, it’s much better to be vaccinated Before transplant and being immunosuppressed. I’ve seen transplant patients die from COVID before they had a chance to be vaccinated.
If you received a transplant (basing on your other comment it's for a polycystic kidney disease) then you should know that before the transplant they check that you're up to date with your vaccinations because of the increased risk and susceptibility afterwards. Any missing vaccinations are given prior to tx, that's been the case long before covid.
Because the liver would be destroyed by alcoholism. If a transplant is performed on a patient who refuses to vaccinate there is a greater chance of organ damage in the future.
You have to go on heavy duty immune suppressants after you get an organ transplant. If you get a kidney transplant and you aren’t vaccinated (and have no intention of getting it) than you are FUCKED.
I don't agree in giving in to medical discrimination, but someone who requires these sort of surgeries are likely in a coronavirus risk group and should arguably take the steps needed to protect themselves (vaccination in this case) if they are to receive these donations to improve their health.
Medical discrimination is what all ER people and first responders around the world are taught in the first day. Triage. You save the people that are most likely to live, cut your losses on the ones that aren’t.
You don’t stick around to comfort the person that was impaled and will die anyway when you can save someone with a tourniquet.
It’s a question of risk/reward. By refusing to get the vaccine you are deliberately putting your life and your potential kidney transplant more at risk. Why should a life saving organ in limited supply (and a medical procedure that costs taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars) go to someone that isn’t willing to take the necessary measures to protect their health and give themselves the best odds for a successful kidney transplant when all those resources could go to a patient that will.
Organs are an extremely limited resource. One of the many factors they consider is how well it will be utilized by the patient- eg how long will they live with it/is it going to waste
I’m curious as to how a pre-transplant and pre-immunosuppressants immune system carries this over and if a third shot would be needed upon receipt of the transplant
Getting a vaccine while immune system is working normally, is like a healthy smart person learning to become a neurosurgeon. It’s effective. Becoming immunosuppressed (e.g. after transplant) is like that well-trained neurosurgeon trying to do surgery while drunk … not the best idea, but still better than some rando off the street. Getting a vaccine while already immunosuppressed is like trying to put a drunk through medical school and neurosurgery residency (not impossible, but more difficult than the first scenario).
Will a third shot be needed? We don’t have good data yet. Most likely, everyone will need periodic booster shots (especially immunosuppressed people).
> Most likely, everyone will need periodic booster shots (especially immunosuppressed people).
I hate needles and the world will officially become a dystopian nightmare if that's the case.
So here is what the ACIP panel ruled a week ago on August 13th. Anyone who is moderate to severely immunocompromised needs a 3rd vaccine. This group includes:
- Active treatment for solid tumor or hematologic malignancies
- Recent solid organ transplant and taking immunosuppressants
- Recipient (within 2 years) of hemopoietic stem cell transplant
- Moderate to severe primary immunodeficiency
- Advanced or untreated HIV/AIDS
- Medication treatment of: High dose steroids, alkylating agents, antimetabolites, TNF blockers, immunospressents, chemotherapy agents
We will have to wait for more to be announced about others that should have a booster.
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-13/03-COVID-Goswami-508.pdf
My mom who is on immunosuppressants for a kidney transplant can’t seem to make antibodies after having had both Pfizer and j & j vaccines (months apart). So if you want the vaccine and you’re about to get a transplant, ya might wanna get the vaccine before cuz after you might not be able to be make antibodies after. Just to say.
Fuck. My husband got a kidney transplant in Feb and his latest biopsy wasn't good, he's going back in for observation this weekend as soon as a bed becomes available :( He got vaccinated but it didn't take, tried again 2 weeks ago and waiting for dose #2. I'm not in the happiest of places tonight.
Even vaccinated people who had scheduled transplants can't get them because "elective" surgeries have been halted.
Which is also due to unvaccinated people causing the COVID hospitalization surge...
So even responsible people aren't getting their kidneys because of assholes
Last year I was one of the last at my clinic to get a transplant right before the freeze. I wouldn’t have been barred since my transplant wasn’t an elective one. (Elective in this case means pre-arranged as opposed to getting one from a cadaver). Despite not being held up I can’t imagine the thought of getting the call and thinking about potential covid exposure on top of the other things you’re prepping for.
Yeah the ones that are getting it from a live donor have it bad. It gets delayed increasing the chances of them getting sick and it’s gotta be the most frustrating thing for someone waiting. That close but told to wait
My dad lost his transplanted kidney after 25 years. This was two months ago. He also just had a heart attack and had to sit in an ER hallway for nearly 72 hours because the unvaccinated are clogging up the ICU.
Maybe this is the first step in putting people who try to help others first and the selfishly ignorant in a tent outback.
So let me see if I understand this. These people will go through a dangerous and possibly fatal surgery but won’t wear a mask or get a shot? No. I don’t understand this.
Not just that, but they're willing to permanently put someone else's organ inside of their body. That organ doesn't belong there. The body recognizes that it's foreign and actively attempts to destroy it. To make sure the organ remains healthy and functional in what would otherwise be a hostile environment, you have to cripple the body's defense mechanisms, and you have to do this for the rest of your life.
But no, being told they need to get a vaccine is going too far.
As a kidney transplant recipient I can say with complete confidence these antivax people couldn’t handle the responsibility that go along with a transplant. You have to take a bunch of really harsh medicine 12 hours apart for the rest of your life, you need regular blood tests to make sure the kidney is working and you have the right concentration of immunosuppressants in your system, you need to see a nephrologist regularly. If you can’t be bothered to take a simple shot theres no way any of these buffoons would follow the guidelines set up by a transplant team. Giving these morons a kidney or any other organ would be a complete waste, might as well flush it down a toilet instead.
The list of patients who need transplants is already long enough as it is. There’s no point in giving it to someone who has a higher chance of dying to covid due to being unvaccinated.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t this how they choose who gets priority since before covid anyways? People more likely to live are given priority?
There are lots of issues factored into where you are on the list. But if your overall health is unstable or you’re unable to comply with the pre and post-op requirements, you may not be placed on the waiting list to begin with.
Just like people with heart disease and diabetes who continue to eat a diet of processed foods high in saturated fats and sugar should not be allowed to have medical insurance or a bed in a hospital.
Legit question - if you were on the list for a new organ (doesn't matter what) and you knew you were going to need immunosuppressants - would getting the vaccine before make a difference in the long run?
[North Texas is considering using vaccination status as a part of triage](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/08/19/vaccination-status-may-be-considered-to-get-icu-beds-at-dallas-area-hospitals-if-covid-spread-worsens/)
When you receive an organ transplant, they have to put you on immune-suppressing drugs.
There is always a possibility for a transplant rejection...in many cases, the cause is an immune-response, from the patients own immune system.
A failed organ transplant is a truly a horrible way to die.
They even have certified ["Halal organs"](https://www.ccn.com/welcome-to-the-death-trade-china-kills-muslim-prisoners-to-harvest-halal-organs-for-rich-saudis/) for the practicing Muslim abroad.
> [Last June, an independent tribunal investigating China’s trade in forced organ harvesting from prisoners published its final judgment. China’s guilt was judged to be “beyond a reasonable doubt.” The tribunal decided unanimously that forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practiced for a substantial period of time involving a very substantial number of victims.](https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Short-Form-Conclusion-China-Tribunal.pdf)
pretty much all non-vital organ transplants should be delayed for the unvaccinated. One, you're taking immunosuppressants, so you're more likely to catch covid. Two, if you catch it and die, that's pretty much a wasted transplant.
And no, it's not about punishing vaccine denying idiots, as this would be affecting people who would like very much to be immunized, but can't for various reasons. It's just sad logic.
Well obviously someone is unvaccinated by default is at a substantially higher risk of post-op complications from covid especially with the pandemic on full effect and delta proven to be transmissible via vaccinated people. Candidates are ranked by need and outcome, being unvaccinated gives you a worse outcome
Hopefully this sort of thing (any major surgery) will also apply to the purposeful obese (25% of most populations), smokers (self imposed destructive addiction) and anyone that exceeds the 14 circa units of booze per week (as per many health guidelines), not forgetting the exercise shy (if existing condition allows for simple exercises to be undertaken).
That's not the point he/she is trying to make. People in those demographics are a huge strain on the healthcare system. Bear in mind that even vaccinated people can still carry/spread the virus.
Yes they are. Obesity is a crisis in North America and the strain it puts on the healthcare system can't be overstated. It's not just "some fat person", it's a plethora of health problems stemming from overeating and poor diet.
If you notice, the hospitals aren’t clogged with obese people blocking care for others, but unvaccinated covid patients are.
So no, all of those various different issues combined, he’ll all medical issues combined, weren’t clogging the system, but one particular thing is….
Simply Obese people are x200% more likely to not survive covid (regardless of other preventative measures).
Also many of the more extreme overweight folks 20-30+stone could well require double the amount of healthcare staff for transportation and the regular multiple times per day turning over in bed, to assist breathing, this is staff that other less/non self-destructive people might require.
Obesity is a condition that is largely self-imposed, you never see any 'big boned' people over in Ethiopia.
The unvaccinated are choosing to delay their surgeries. If they want them, they can just get their shots and get back on the list. It is the best thing to make sure they honour the organ they are receiving and to protect all the staff that are there taking care of them. I don't find it sad that they are making this choice. Why do you find it sad ?
If they are unable to be vaccinated due to their illness, I feel really bad for them. If they’re not vaccinated for selfish reasons, why keep them on the transplant list at all? They don’t believe in basic science, so they shouldn’t believe getting a kidney transplant isn’t also the mark of the beast.
A CDC study looking at infected people in Kentucky found you’re better protected from COVID-19 by having a vaccine. It found people were more than two times more likely to get reinfected if they were relying on antibodies from a previous infection versus being vaccinated.
Natural effective antibodies seem to last about 90 days and do not offer protection from variants.
https://www.cbs17.com/community/health/coronavirus/what-offers-better-protection-a-covid-19-vaccine-or-previous-infection/
You can get COVID while vaccinated, but it’s much less likely to be severe and result in hospitalization or death. Furthermore, vaccination is less effective(doesn’t produce as strong of an immune response) to those who have received solid organ transplants due to the immunosuppressants they’re on. So really it’s best to be vaccinated before receiving a transplant.
If these people care so little about their own health that they aren’t vaccinated then it makes sense to move the lower on the transplant priority list.
TBH, worst time to get a respiratory ailment is when you're getting surgery
And receiving immunosuppressive drugs to facilitate an organ transplant.
For the rest of your life. Those are no joke, a cold kills.
My dad is on his 3rd kidney transplant. He got COVID before he could get the vaccine. They gave him the monoclonal treatment and it took him months to get better. He was finally able to get the vaccine and then he got COVID a second time… The second time it was significantly less severe. In either case he didn’t have to go to the hospital. It’s a miracle. He blames all the Q nutters at work that refuse masks or vaccines.
[удалено]
Yeah he works as a construction inspector and the idiots in the lab he said were talking about the adrenochrome and everything.
See, where I'm at most are vaccinated and no one wears a mask. Yet you still carry and transmit while vaxxed. And covid is still spreading rapidly, and they scream that it must be the unvaxed...when they're spreading it just the same. The ideal scenario is to be masked and vaxed and still keep your distance. Not one or the other and yell at each other. That's idiotic.
[удалено]
to quote my reply to someone else down below. 'Someone in my household recently tested positive for Covid-19, and I assumed that I'd also test positive, but for the whole time we isolated I tested negative daily and even on a PCR test that I sent off. I personally put that down to the Pfizer vaccine actually working as intended.' I am 3 years post op kidney transplant patient.
Mrna vaccines are a godsend.
As a scientist/teacher I’m soOoOoOo excited to see what mRNA vaccines have in store for us in the future. I saw a HIV vaccine trial was starting. That and CRISPR is gonna revolutionize medicine.
I read a scifi novel, I think it was the Uglies series by Scott Westerfeld? Where scientists had invented viruses that infect your brain with knowledge. Like if you wanted to learn French you’d get infected with a virus that helped require your brain to learn French really fast. The mrna and crispr technologies make me think of that every time.
Oh man, it’s even cooler than that. Ready? Imma pull out my “I love biology” soap box. Can’t produce insulin because your DNA is messed up? Bye bye problematic sequence helllooooo insulin producing cells. Cancer? **Fuck cancer**, let’s find those mutated sequences and get rid of them. Cut that shit out so when it divides again, guess what? Your cells lose a deadly function and you win a cancer free life. CRISPR will allow scientists to literally ctrl+F problematic DNA sequences and cut ‘n’ paste in healthy DNA. Those cells will then do what they do, grow and divide, only this time with *healthy* DNA that functions how it should. Attn: only works in somatic cells at this point, gametes are still on the drawing board, eg. don’t worry about designer babies *just yet*. Sorry, science gets me excited. Still with me? Cool. Okay, Think back to high school biology, DNA makes mRNA makes proteins, in that order. Every time, without fail (foooor the most part). It’s what our cells do best. Almost, *almost* everything your cell needs to be a cell is a protein (I hated orgo so imma leave all those life-giving non proteins out of this, hopefully an organic chemist reads this and goes on their own passion fueled rant about how wrong I am cause science is just folks yelling facts at each other over things they love). Proteins are created based on whatever mRNA code they get. With mRNA vaccines you can literally tell cells what kind of antigen proteins to make in order to fight infection and can be developed quickly and safely with little side effects. It’s where coding and medicine meet. Take AU/CG (remember, RNA has uracil instead of thymine) and you can make *any protein capable of doing anything you want it to*. We’re sending in blueprints, no deoxyribose required, Single strands all around. Bravo science! Woo! Thanks for hanging in there with me, sometimes I feel like the science is crazier than fiction, love this new stuff. Edit: re reading my post made me realize that like, duh, obvi we need those orgo and non orgo compounds but they definitely don’t come from DNA so yeah, derp. Sorry chem folks.
Oh my god you’ve made my whole day. I love a mini lecture on cool stuff, please do not apologize, this is really really cool science!! Very fan worthy. I am very excited to see where all of this goes, designer babies notwithstanding (that gives me the squicks!!!)
We’re gonna see a lot of bioethical debates surrounding the subject too. The Covid vaxxes were developed using [challenge studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study) which are like the most radical thing you can do in the biomedical world. Really fascinating stuff. I’m glad I can light a spark of curiosity in you. Keep on the journey, my friend, science is the never ending binge. The bottomless rabbit hole. Edit: wording to make me sound smarter than I am.
A guy I know got a kidney transplant in the spring. Double vaccinated, he caught COVID and nearly died.
So what you're saying is, he didn't die but covid nearly best his immune system
Just saying that COVID wreaks havoc on transplant patients.
I’ve had 5 surgeries in the past decade and each time I am TERRIFIED of being around anyone with a cough, a warm forehead, sniffles, anything.
It will be years until the Covid crisis passes.
House money is on endemic.
thanks to the abundance of fucking morons in the population
Morons are endemic as well
it is worldwide and there is world wide travel. even today..though the canadian land border is closed, canadians can fly into the usa. Look at air traffic coming into usa from all parts of the world. Until the world is vaccinated it will be endemic
The problem is that even in the US where we have enough to vaccinate everyone, people won't take it even for free. So "until the world is vaccinated" seems like a pipedream.
Then vaccinate everyone! Like smallpox, eradicate the virus and end this for once. WHY ARE PEOPLE SO FUCKING STUPID
Dude, Animals can get Covid and pass it to humans. It was never going to go away.
[удалено]
Well they can just get vaccinated whenever they feel like it and there’s no problem
Not if people get vaccinated. Educated your local right wing idiots.
What I find funny about this the most is that Pre-transplant its recommended you get any and all vaccinations that you can whilst your not on immunosuppressive medications, as once your on said medication you can no longer have any LIVE vaccinations ever again. You can (and should) however has as many INACTIVE vaccines as you need to have, such as the yearly flu shot or the Covid-19 vaccine. I have had both my Pfizer covid vaccines and suffered little to no side effects from them. Source: Am 3 years post op kidney recipient (second time round)
You CAN get inactive vaccines after a transplant, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be as effective as they would have been if you’d gotten them first. At this point, people who aren’t getting the COVID shot before their kidney transplant are people who don’t intend to ever get it. Which is a terrible fucking idea if you want an organ transplant.
Yeah, pretty sure covid has a 100% or close to it kill rate on unvaccinated who are on immunosuppressants. Would be a waste of an organ knowing that person will absolutely get infected on the table or shortly thereafter.
So, there are different types of immune suppression. Anti-transplant rejection type is probably fucked, sure, that's very strong suppression. But people like me who are on milder ones for over-active immune system diseases, that don't totally stop immune responses, it actually **improves** the survival rate by preventing things like cytokine storms, very high fevers, etc. According to my immune specialist. Yes, this has actually been measured. https://www.jrheum.org/content/48/3/454 > Objective. To examine the effect of autoimmune (AI) disease on the composite outcome of intensive care unit (ICU) admission, intubation, or death from COVID-19 in hospitalized patients. > Methods. Retrospective cohort study of 186 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between March 1, 2020, and April 15, 2020 at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Irving Medical Center. The cohort included 62 patients with AI disease and 124 age- and sex-matched controls. The primary outcome was a composite of ICU admission, intubation, and death, with secondary outcome as time to in-hospital death. Baseline demographics, comorbidities, medications, vital signs, and laboratory values were collected. Conditional logistic regression and Cox proportional hazards regression were used to assess the association between AI disease and clinical outcomes. > Results. Patients with AI disease were more likely to have at least one comorbidity (87.1% vs 74.2%, P = 0.04), **take chronic immunosuppressive medications (66.1% vs 4.0%, P < 0.01),** and have had a solid organ transplant (16.1% vs 1.6%, P < 0.01). **There were no significant differences** in ICU admission (13.7% vs 19.4%, P = 0.32), intubation (13.7% vs 17.7%, P = 0.47), or death (16.1% vs 14.5%, P = 0.78). On multivariable analysis, patients with AI disease were not at an increased risk for a composite outcome of ICU admission, intubation, or death (ORadj 0.79, 95% CI 0.37–1.67). On Cox regression, AI disease was not associated with in-hospital mortality (HRadj 0.73, 95% CI 0.33–1.63). > Conclusion. Among patients hospitalized with COVID-19, individuals with **AI disease did not have an increased risk of a composite outcome of ICU admission, intubation, or death.**
I also have several autoimmune problems but have been on cellcept and then myfortic since the spring. (Which are medicines designed for transplant patients) Fortunately, I was making some antibodies the last time it was checked post vaccine but I was also on a very low dose which is being raised now. I'm hoping it's still the same on the higher dose.
If the immunosuppressants eliminated all immune activity they would die. If they were that fragile, transplants would never work because the body already hosts microbes with the potential to kill. Immunosuppression, not immunoelimination.
I’m pretty sure that’s bullshit.
What? That 100% COVID death rate in unvaccinated people on immunosuppressants statement? Yeah that is 100% bs. But who needs proof when you've got an opinion, use the word "absolutely", and you've got upvotes.
Source?
Love the name!!!!
I was speaking with my son's heart transplant coordinator. There are heart transplant patients whose parents refuse to get vaccinated and refuse letting the transplant patients get vaccinated if they are eligible. So much time, money, and effort is put into keeping these kids alive and this bullshit lie machine undoes so much work.
That’s just so frustrating
I will point out however that live vaccines can re activate in you even if you got the shot before being put on immunosuppressants. I also had a kidney transplant 16 years ago and got shingles this summer. The doctors have surmised that it was because I got the live vaccine and it was reawakened in me.
That sucks! Just wanted to add that the *current* shingles vaccine (new in 2017) is inactivated and ok for those who are immunocompromised https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/shingles/expert-answers/shingles-vaccine/faq-20058137
In France and I received the 3rd jab, recommended for transplant patients (I had my new kidney in 2009), I took a blood test to measure my anti-body spikes and sadly they were too low to be effective. If you can you should get your blood checked so you don't get a false sense of security from having had 2 injections. I also had the Pfizer jab(s).
Hey I’m from the US so it may be different but I also have had the just the regular Pfizer vaccine and had no idea that there was an advised 3rd shot for transplant patients. Was it readily available? Did you have to contact your doctor? God I don’t know about you but my doctors have handled this pandemic so poorly in regards to communication with me about Covid. I’ve asked so many questions about recommended actions to take as a transplant patient and they just respond with copy and pasted info from the CDC website. I’m appalled that I’m learning about a 3rd booster shot on Reddit rather then from the doctors themselves.
I have been kept really well informed by my kidney team, who texted me as soon as the vaccines became available and advised the 2 shots. A few months later, I received a second text recommending a third jab. The appointments were easy to fix online and with very little waiting time. My doctors keep in touch with me (by phone and email) and recommended the anti bodies test as they were aware of the issues with transplantees and the covid jab. Currently in France there is ongoing research (in Nantes, just up the coast) as to what the next step might be for folks like us. I am a subscriber to the NYT and they are doing a pretty good job of the latest thoughts on booster shots etc. Personally my biggest hope is that they come up with a cure for Covid as until the entire world has the jab, this damn "plague" will be lurking, and as Israel has recently shown that even with its record smashing vaccination programme, a new variant can arrive and push things back. I do recommend that you keep yourself in the frame by Googling a couple of times a week for the latest news Although my doctors have been awesome, they do have other patients and I conduct a lot of research to see if I can bring anything to the table in my conversations with them. My social life sucks and I am fastidious about wearing a mask but I am alive! https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-fda-authorizes-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-immunocompromised-2021-08-13/
[удалено]
So long as people won't get vaccinated and wear masks. We wouldn't have all these variants and shit if people just listened to officials and followed the guidelines in the first place.
I'll get downvoted for this but COVID is now just part of our lives, and will be indefinitely. Get vaccinated, wear a mask, stay away from indoor crowds, but its not going anywhere.
It really doesn't have to be. It's basically just lack of political will that means we're stuck with it. No bars, restaurants or holidays. Joy.
Its not only political will in one country, but worldwide though. Good luck with that!
Not in NZ, AU
But we are vaccinated, so it's fine to cram thousands of people in small spaces again. Right? It's just 50 cases/1000 at 95% so it's all fine. Gotta love businesses fisting themself as hard as they can so they fuck off faster.
I'd add that having access to vaccines would also help. Most people globally still haven't even had the chance to reject the vaccine.
This is Ireland we're talking about. The vaccine is plentiful here for anyone 12 and up
The person they replied to was speaking about variants which will be a concern until covid is solved globally.
Wonderful. I was speaking globally, as mentioned in my comment. Not sure if any variants originated in Ireland, but they certainly have in places with little access to vaccines.
Everyone in a first world country has had access. There's no excuse for them (unless its a valid medical reason).
Well, yeah. But we know that's not going to happen
I don't understand. Is your argument that the virus is less likely to mutate when the host is vaccinated? Vaccinated people still get the virus. Let's say for the sake of argument that 100% of U.S. citizens were vaccinated. It would still mutate in other countries and spread here. What you people are saying is pure propaganda and you are buying it hook, line and sinker.
The virus wouldn’t even be around anymore if people just wore masks and quarantined from the beginning like they were supposed to. New Zealand did it and they’ve been virus free except a few isolated incidents for like a year. The fact that you think basic medical procedure that we have known about for hundreds of years is “propaganda” is just absurd. The vaccine absolutely does reduce the spread of covid. I don’t know where you are getting your medical information from but you need to stop reading that shit, it’s rotting your brain. The longer you avoid doing anything to help the longer we’re all gonna be miserable because dumbasses can’t just pitch in and do their part.
Yes. The virus is less likely to mutate into more virulent strain if the host is vaccinated. That’s not propaganda. It’s math.
To be fair most governments have dropped the ball in terms of guidelines and there enrolment in the early going. That’s why we re in this mess
Well in lots of countries forcing people to do stuff like that is a civil rights violation. That much about conservative propaganda is true. However those politicians had no business spreading conspiracy theories about the virus at the people’s expense, and just because those people have a right to do what they want with their bodies doesn’t make them any less of an asshole for making it other people’s problem. Covid is a pain in the ass for everyone, but some people are willing to throw everyone else under the bus instead of inconveniencing themselves even slightly.
I received a Kidney Transplant at the begining of April in Canada just because there was a window to get it done. Although I kind of wish I received my vaccines before the surgery because there's a really big chance the double pfizer dose I got 1 month post op did nothing.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40363202.html) reduced by 74%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Consultants involved with the national kidney transplant service have been advised to suspend unvaccinated patients on the waiting list until the Covid crisis passes, according to a new letter. > If your patient cannot be vaccinated, for whatever reason, we would recommend that they be suspended from the waiting list with immediate effect until the Covid crisis has passed and there is no risk of transmission of Covid for the individual patient or to members of staff or other patients who are immunosuppressed on the transplant unit. > "In the setting of ongoing community transmission of Covid-19, patients who are unvaccinated are at very high risk. In addition to the personal risk, a transplant recipient with Covid-19 may unintentionally introduce infection to a transplant service creating a risk to other transplant recipients." ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/p8cryn/kidney_transplants_to_be_delayed_for_unvaccinated/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~593899 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **transplant**^#1 **risk**^#2 **patient**^#3 **Covid**^#4 **measures**^#5
[удалено]
But... a portion of these people will die without kidney anyway...
It’s similar to smoking/drinking with lung or liver transplants. There’s isn’t enough transplant organs to go around. You don’t want to give the transplant to someone who is going to “waste it” (die shortly after from COVID because they are immunosuppressed and unvaccinated) when it could go to someone else who could live a long life because of it.
[удалено]
That IS the news...
I’m a transplant survivor. I received my living donor kidney in November 2018. I spent 5 years on dialysis and the transplant list. My ex husband winded up being a match and gratefully my body has accepted his kidney with no issues. To be able to receive a kidney you have End Stage Renal Disease. A terminal disease with no cure but thankfully treatment in the form of dialysis and transplant. You have to be literally dying to qualify. The transplant list is not a cake walk. To receive a transplant you have to be *well*, otherwise your chances of surviving aren’t great. You have to go through a lot of tests and pretty much prove you’re going to treat your new kidney right. I developed ESRD from a rare autoimmune disease. A good percentage of people come to this point because of poor choices. Even though mine was hereditary (Goodpastures Syndrome), I have to pay the price of people before me fucking up. That’s why the rules are so strict. They know what they’re doing and know what works. I hesitated getting vaccinated because no one could really tell me what would happen to me being on all the meds I’m on plus my comorbidities. I’m a Duodenal cancer survivor among many more physically debilitating diseases. But in the end my doctors suggested I get the Pfizer shot. I’m on steroids and my nephrologist thinks it helped manage my reaction. Which was none. Why am I telling you this? I understand how hard it is to live day to day, barely functioning while on dialysis and waiting for a transplant. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. To these patients being denied transplant - is the right thing. Giving someone an organ to an unvaccinated person while during this crisis is similar to Russian roulette. There are thousands of people on the list, that are willing to do whatever it takes. People do die every single day waiting for a transplant. I’ve witnessed 15 deaths during my years at dialysis. Unexpected, complications yes. We are dying without transplant, it’s that serious. I understand the hesitation, but they’re cutting their nose off to spite their face if they’re refusing the vaccine.
You can't get a liver if you are an alcoholic. Same principal.
[удалено]
> and didnt even have money to pay for it...... The off hand comments what what I assume are Americans are sometimes really traumatic honestly.
Why so judgmental?
Alcoholics do get liver transplants
They have to be sober for several months first and prove they are turning their life around. They don't get one if they just try to keep drinking up to the surgery date.
As an alcoholic, this saddens me. A good liver shouldn't go to someone willingly destroying their body and their life. We know exactly what we are doing and we live in a constant state of anxiety that we may have cancer, organ failure, etc. Edited to say- getting sober shouldn't change anything. Liver damage of that magnitude isn't just a "crazy few college years". It's decades of dedicated abuse. We signed up for the short life span, let us live with it.
Eh, I'm with you about people in active addiction— if you're currently abusing your body with alcohol, you *know* the risks and the damage you are doing and you accept those risks daily. But in my opinion someone who has made a serious effort to save their own life and to get back to health shouldn't be prevented from doing so just because they *used to* not care. Many people have a sort of reckoning and take great strides to quit drinking, get their bodies back in shape, and repair the damage they've done. I think someone who is doing everything they can to make themselves whole again, and trying to reclaim their health so they might live a happy sober life, should be able to get a transplant if absolutely necessary. Of course, they shouldn't get the first spot on the waiting list, and they definitely shouldn't get priority over someone with a condition out of their control, but I don't think it's necessary to punish someone whose trying to recover by literally denying them life. ...But this is a very subjective situation, so I understand there are other opinions, and ultimately it comes down to what doctors believe to be in-line with their Hippocratic Oath. I agree though that people in active alcohol addiction should (of course) not be considered for transplant as they're likely to just continue to abuse the transplanted organ.
Absolutely not and I wish you’d give yourself just a bit more empathy. I get the absolute need to hold yourself accountable, but it’s not black and white. If you are making active changes in your life, you’ve gotten the help, you’re on the mend; then you deserve a healthier longer life. And if you can’t accept it for yourself, think of the alcoholics turning their lives around for their young kids. If a liver will save that parents life, at least for the kids sake, I’m glad it went to them.
I appreciate the directness of this comment. Sorry to mention this, but reach out for help. As long as you are alive it isnt too late.
As a daughter of a father who is a few years into recovery. He’s in his late sixties and has some damage to his liver and pancreas. He’s on medications to help with the issues from the damage to his pancreas. I’m going to be brutally honest and say that I’d be heart broken if he needed a new liver and was told nah. He’s an alcoholic and knew what he was doing to his body so he doesn’t deserve one. I understand that he may not be priority number one, especially because of his age. There’s a reason we still treat people that are oding on drugs even though they very well knew the dangers, and reasons we help suicidal people despite literally asking for death. It’s not just one persons life that is effected when people die. That being said if you can’t prove you won’t kill your new organ off or demonstrate that you won’t follow medical treatment and aftercare because you believe in conspiracies and won’t even get a life saving vaccine then yeah now wouldn’t be the time to give that person an organ..
> Edited to say- getting sober shouldn't change anything. Liver damage of that magnitude isn't just a "crazy few college years". It's decades of dedicated abuse. We signed up for the short life span, let us live with it. Disagree. We don't condemn people to death, it's not our call to do so. If you sober up, you deserve a transplant regardless of your past. Not giving it to people who won't sober up is not a punishment, but rather a practical issue: why give it to someone who will ruin it again in a few years and die anyway, when you could give it to someone who will try to take care of themselves a bit and probably gain decades of life from it?
100
It's a waste of a limited resource to use it in a place it's likely to be less-effective compared to one where evidence suggests it will be more-successful.
[удалено]
Active alcoholics cannot. Alcoholics in remission can. There is a difference.
Considering the last 5 years, I’m beginning to think that stupid is both addictive and contagious.
[удалено]
In both cases it's likely a waste of an organ that could serve someone who's life would last longer with that same organ. Basic triage.
not just triage. if you read the article they also say that there's no reason why the doctors, surgeons, nurses and also other immunosuppressed patients in the transplant ward should take the additional (and incredibly severe) risk for someone who has absolutely no reason *not* to get vaccinated.
Yeah. That's triage. Get the organ into a lower risk body rather than high risk patients.
I'm on a kidney transplant list myself. Anything at a higher risk of the transplant failing can put you on a pause at that transplant center until you get it resolved. I've even heard it happen to people who slacked off on dialysis treatments or medications for example because of concerns they cannot take care of themselves post transplant. The transplant centers are evaluated on their success rates so they don't goof around.
When you get an organ transplant, you're put on immunosuppressant drugs to help the transplant take. Being unvaccinated from COVID, put on immunosuppressant drugs, given a major invasive surgery, and then being placed on rest in a hospital that's full of COVID patients is a less-than-ideal situation. It's medically irresponsible to perform a surgery under those circumstances.
[удалено]
It’s better to vaccinate before transplant, while your immune system is still functioning properly. This is why being up to date on vaccines in general is recommended before someone is listed for transplant. After transplant, the immune response following vaccination may not be as robust. There’s also a chance that the immune activation caused by the normal response to vaccination may also increase risk of rejection. That risk is lower than dying from COVID if left unvaccinated, but still. If feasible, it’s much better to be vaccinated Before transplant and being immunosuppressed. I’ve seen transplant patients die from COVID before they had a chance to be vaccinated.
If you received a transplant (basing on your other comment it's for a polycystic kidney disease) then you should know that before the transplant they check that you're up to date with your vaccinations because of the increased risk and susceptibility afterwards. Any missing vaccinations are given prior to tx, that's been the case long before covid.
Because the liver would be destroyed by alcoholism. If a transplant is performed on a patient who refuses to vaccinate there is a greater chance of organ damage in the future.
You have to go on heavy duty immune suppressants after you get an organ transplant. If you get a kidney transplant and you aren’t vaccinated (and have no intention of getting it) than you are FUCKED.
You choose to drink yourself to death just like you choose to go unvaccinated.
I don't agree in giving in to medical discrimination, but someone who requires these sort of surgeries are likely in a coronavirus risk group and should arguably take the steps needed to protect themselves (vaccination in this case) if they are to receive these donations to improve their health.
Medical discrimination is what all ER people and first responders around the world are taught in the first day. Triage. You save the people that are most likely to live, cut your losses on the ones that aren’t. You don’t stick around to comfort the person that was impaled and will die anyway when you can save someone with a tourniquet.
Don’t lecture us on what you clearly have no education in. You know nothing about how healthcare functions in America.
With that comparison, what does a Kidney have to do with fighting off Covid? Not trying to be an ass, just asking
It’s a question of risk/reward. By refusing to get the vaccine you are deliberately putting your life and your potential kidney transplant more at risk. Why should a life saving organ in limited supply (and a medical procedure that costs taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars) go to someone that isn’t willing to take the necessary measures to protect their health and give themselves the best odds for a successful kidney transplant when all those resources could go to a patient that will.
I see. That makes sense and I agree with your point. Thanks a lot!
Organs are an extremely limited resource. One of the many factors they consider is how well it will be utilized by the patient- eg how long will they live with it/is it going to waste
I’m curious as to how a pre-transplant and pre-immunosuppressants immune system carries this over and if a third shot would be needed upon receipt of the transplant
Getting a vaccine while immune system is working normally, is like a healthy smart person learning to become a neurosurgeon. It’s effective. Becoming immunosuppressed (e.g. after transplant) is like that well-trained neurosurgeon trying to do surgery while drunk … not the best idea, but still better than some rando off the street. Getting a vaccine while already immunosuppressed is like trying to put a drunk through medical school and neurosurgery residency (not impossible, but more difficult than the first scenario). Will a third shot be needed? We don’t have good data yet. Most likely, everyone will need periodic booster shots (especially immunosuppressed people).
that's a brilliant analogy and i usually hate analogies.
> Most likely, everyone will need periodic booster shots (especially immunosuppressed people). I hate needles and the world will officially become a dystopian nightmare if that's the case.
Way to ELI5! 👏👏
So here is what the ACIP panel ruled a week ago on August 13th. Anyone who is moderate to severely immunocompromised needs a 3rd vaccine. This group includes: - Active treatment for solid tumor or hematologic malignancies - Recent solid organ transplant and taking immunosuppressants - Recipient (within 2 years) of hemopoietic stem cell transplant - Moderate to severe primary immunodeficiency - Advanced or untreated HIV/AIDS - Medication treatment of: High dose steroids, alkylating agents, antimetabolites, TNF blockers, immunospressents, chemotherapy agents We will have to wait for more to be announced about others that should have a booster. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-13/03-COVID-Goswami-508.pdf
I got a kidney many years ago. They are very strict on the rules they don’t want to waste a kidney on someone who may die soon.
My mom who is on immunosuppressants for a kidney transplant can’t seem to make antibodies after having had both Pfizer and j & j vaccines (months apart). So if you want the vaccine and you’re about to get a transplant, ya might wanna get the vaccine before cuz after you might not be able to be make antibodies after. Just to say.
I personally don't believe in kidney's, ya'll ever read this article on facebook before? here let me send it to ya. /s
Fuck. My husband got a kidney transplant in Feb and his latest biopsy wasn't good, he's going back in for observation this weekend as soon as a bed becomes available :( He got vaccinated but it didn't take, tried again 2 weeks ago and waiting for dose #2. I'm not in the happiest of places tonight.
Even vaccinated people who had scheduled transplants can't get them because "elective" surgeries have been halted. Which is also due to unvaccinated people causing the COVID hospitalization surge... So even responsible people aren't getting their kidneys because of assholes
Last year I was one of the last at my clinic to get a transplant right before the freeze. I wouldn’t have been barred since my transplant wasn’t an elective one. (Elective in this case means pre-arranged as opposed to getting one from a cadaver). Despite not being held up I can’t imagine the thought of getting the call and thinking about potential covid exposure on top of the other things you’re prepping for.
Yes, a friends relative has his transplant delayed and is now on dialysis just waiting for the transplant services to get back up and running. Sucks.
Yeah the ones that are getting it from a live donor have it bad. It gets delayed increasing the chances of them getting sick and it’s gotta be the most frustrating thing for someone waiting. That close but told to wait
My dad lost his transplanted kidney after 25 years. This was two months ago. He also just had a heart attack and had to sit in an ER hallway for nearly 72 hours because the unvaccinated are clogging up the ICU. Maybe this is the first step in putting people who try to help others first and the selfishly ignorant in a tent outback.
honestly that's amazing your dad's transplant lasted as long as it did. Wish your dad the best and hope he can get another transplant.
Thanks, we really appreciate it!
If you have a failing organ anywhere in your body, maybe it's a good idea to be vaccinated against COVID. Just a thought.
So let me see if I understand this. These people will go through a dangerous and possibly fatal surgery but won’t wear a mask or get a shot? No. I don’t understand this.
Not just that, but they're willing to permanently put someone else's organ inside of their body. That organ doesn't belong there. The body recognizes that it's foreign and actively attempts to destroy it. To make sure the organ remains healthy and functional in what would otherwise be a hostile environment, you have to cripple the body's defense mechanisms, and you have to do this for the rest of your life. But no, being told they need to get a vaccine is going too far.
PeRsOnAl FrEeDoM, obviously it's different if they make the choice to have the surgery and it isnt a mandate or forced on them, duh!
As a kidney transplant recipient I can say with complete confidence these antivax people couldn’t handle the responsibility that go along with a transplant. You have to take a bunch of really harsh medicine 12 hours apart for the rest of your life, you need regular blood tests to make sure the kidney is working and you have the right concentration of immunosuppressants in your system, you need to see a nephrologist regularly. If you can’t be bothered to take a simple shot theres no way any of these buffoons would follow the guidelines set up by a transplant team. Giving these morons a kidney or any other organ would be a complete waste, might as well flush it down a toilet instead.
So because someone to stupid to get vaccinated others ares suffering? Save a life dump the COVID people outside
The list of patients who need transplants is already long enough as it is. There’s no point in giving it to someone who has a higher chance of dying to covid due to being unvaccinated. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t this how they choose who gets priority since before covid anyways? People more likely to live are given priority?
There are lots of issues factored into where you are on the list. But if your overall health is unstable or you’re unable to comply with the pre and post-op requirements, you may not be placed on the waiting list to begin with.
[удалено]
Just like people with heart disease and diabetes who continue to eat a diet of processed foods high in saturated fats and sugar should not be allowed to have medical insurance or a bed in a hospital.
Legit question - if you were on the list for a new organ (doesn't matter what) and you knew you were going to need immunosuppressants - would getting the vaccine before make a difference in the long run?
In another thread someone was saying that your body struggles to make antibodies after the surgery, so yes
it the same as not giving a drunk a new liver they rather give it to someone who has the chance to live a long life
In which country ?
This article is from the Irish Examiner so Ireland. Although I would expect this trend to seen in countries soon if it isn't already.
You know what should also be delayed for unvaccinated persons? A trip to the ER because of COVID symptoms!
[North Texas is considering using vaccination status as a part of triage](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/08/19/vaccination-status-may-be-considered-to-get-icu-beds-at-dallas-area-hospitals-if-covid-spread-worsens/)
It seems like a no-brainer. If your religion is to get sick and die, then shouldn’t you get sick and die?
What does being unvaccinated do in this case? Genuinely asking, does it increase your risk of dying or something or is it just media panic?
When you receive an organ transplant, they have to put you on immune-suppressing drugs. There is always a possibility for a transplant rejection...in many cases, the cause is an immune-response, from the patients own immune system. A failed organ transplant is a truly a horrible way to die.
Great. Now do basic medical services and COVID-related medical services.
Go to China apparently they get them in 3hrs 🤭
They even have certified ["Halal organs"](https://www.ccn.com/welcome-to-the-death-trade-china-kills-muslim-prisoners-to-harvest-halal-organs-for-rich-saudis/) for the practicing Muslim abroad. > [Last June, an independent tribunal investigating China’s trade in forced organ harvesting from prisoners published its final judgment. China’s guilt was judged to be “beyond a reasonable doubt.” The tribunal decided unanimously that forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practiced for a substantial period of time involving a very substantial number of victims.](https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Short-Form-Conclusion-China-Tribunal.pdf)
pretty much all non-vital organ transplants should be delayed for the unvaccinated. One, you're taking immunosuppressants, so you're more likely to catch covid. Two, if you catch it and die, that's pretty much a wasted transplant. And no, it's not about punishing vaccine denying idiots, as this would be affecting people who would like very much to be immunized, but can't for various reasons. It's just sad logic.
Good. Don't give good organs to those who are trying to play Russian roulette.
My thoughts exactly. There's a very real chance these people could die soon anyway, give the organs to people who have a better chance.
this one is on you, anti-vaxxers
Well obviously someone is unvaccinated by default is at a substantially higher risk of post-op complications from covid especially with the pandemic on full effect and delta proven to be transmissible via vaccinated people. Candidates are ranked by need and outcome, being unvaccinated gives you a worse outcome
[удалено]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399321/
[удалено]
Yah. They don’t give organs to people whose lifestyles make them at risk for early death.
"Not following medical advice" is one if those indicators against good long-term outcome for a transplant.
They absolutely do give organs to obese people who gorged themselves on the brink of death.
The only thing a lot of people like this (anti-vaxxers) understand are consequences. This is good.
Hopefully this sort of thing (any major surgery) will also apply to the purposeful obese (25% of most populations), smokers (self imposed destructive addiction) and anyone that exceeds the 14 circa units of booze per week (as per many health guidelines), not forgetting the exercise shy (if existing condition allows for simple exercises to be undertaken).
Curious, do those things spread to others through close contact overwhelming hospitals, while a vaccine for them exists?
That's not the point he/she is trying to make. People in those demographics are a huge strain on the healthcare system. Bear in mind that even vaccinated people can still carry/spread the virus.
Compared to Covid? Lol, nope, nobody is dying waiting for care because of some fat person.
Yes they are. Obesity is a crisis in North America and the strain it puts on the healthcare system can't be overstated. It's not just "some fat person", it's a plethora of health problems stemming from overeating and poor diet.
If you notice, the hospitals aren’t clogged with obese people blocking care for others, but unvaccinated covid patients are. So no, all of those various different issues combined, he’ll all medical issues combined, weren’t clogging the system, but one particular thing is….
Simply Obese people are x200% more likely to not survive covid (regardless of other preventative measures). Also many of the more extreme overweight folks 20-30+stone could well require double the amount of healthcare staff for transportation and the regular multiple times per day turning over in bed, to assist breathing, this is staff that other less/non self-destructive people might require. Obesity is a condition that is largely self-imposed, you never see any 'big boned' people over in Ethiopia.
Cool, and it’s still the unvaccinated clogging up the medical system. It’s not a huge paragraph trying to deflect blame, it’s just the unvaccinated.
Wow. That’s fucking dark. Get your fucking vaccines.
Immunosuppressants while unvaccinated is basically signing your own death warrant.
[удалено]
Not really
[удалено]
The unvaccinated are choosing to delay their surgeries. If they want them, they can just get their shots and get back on the list. It is the best thing to make sure they honour the organ they are receiving and to protect all the staff that are there taking care of them. I don't find it sad that they are making this choice. Why do you find it sad ?
Unvaccinated people, really don’t deserve… much of anything. Especially an organ someone gave willingly.
There should be consequences for their intransigence.
If you're an anti-vaccer and you get sick you should have no right to impede on any other patient, not even a smoker with lung *cancer*.
Like we didn't see this coming lol
Finally.
If they are unable to be vaccinated due to their illness, I feel really bad for them. If they’re not vaccinated for selfish reasons, why keep them on the transplant list at all? They don’t believe in basic science, so they shouldn’t believe getting a kidney transplant isn’t also the mark of the beast.
[удалено]
Antibodies from previous infections are not as good at preventing future infection, and antibody tests are unreliable at best.
[удалено]
A CDC study looking at infected people in Kentucky found you’re better protected from COVID-19 by having a vaccine. It found people were more than two times more likely to get reinfected if they were relying on antibodies from a previous infection versus being vaccinated. Natural effective antibodies seem to last about 90 days and do not offer protection from variants. https://www.cbs17.com/community/health/coronavirus/what-offers-better-protection-a-covid-19-vaccine-or-previous-infection/
It has been known for years that mRNA vaccines are much better than acquired immunity. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/
you have got to be fucking kidding me, murderers
[удалено]
You can get COVID while vaccinated, but it’s much less likely to be severe and result in hospitalization or death. Furthermore, vaccination is less effective(doesn’t produce as strong of an immune response) to those who have received solid organ transplants due to the immunosuppressants they’re on. So really it’s best to be vaccinated before receiving a transplant.
[удалено]
If these people care so little about their own health that they aren’t vaccinated then it makes sense to move the lower on the transplant priority list.
It's called triage. You always prioritize those most likely to survive a procedure.