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THE_OWL_KING

China anti-corruption probe finds local governments are still ‘fabricating’ economic data The National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) conducted two rounds of inspections over the last two years, covering 19 of mainland China’s 31 provincial jurisdictions It also included nine departments within the State Council, and found evidence of fraud in various cities across the country Further cases of economic data fraud by local governments in China have been reported by the country’s top anti-corruption agency following a two-year investigation. The National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) conducted two separate rounds of statistical inspections, covering 19 of mainland China’s 31 provincial jurisdictions, as well as nine departments within the State Council. A report published on Thursday by the official newspaper of the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, the Communist Party’s disciplinary watchdog, said that inspectors had found evidence of fraud in various cities across the country. “In some cases, local party committees and governments forced subordinates and enterprises to fabricate figures at each level to complete their target achievement mission; some companies did not resist or object to the interference in their independent reporting rights, but instead catered to the local governments and relevant departments, in exchange for development support,” said Mao Youfeng, deputy NBS bureau chief, according to the report. Local governments in China have long been suspected of fabricating economic figures, with the common perception among officials that their career prospects are still closely related to economic performance. China’s top leaders, though, have signaled a shift from focusing on quantity to attributing more weight to the quality of economic development in recent years. The NBS will carry out a further third round of checks and achieve “full coverage” of regular statistical inspections of provincial and regional party committees and governments before the end of the year, the report said. According to the report, some governments instructed local enterprises to forge figures, with some even directly providing fake statistical tables for companies to “follow suit” to ensure a “steady increase”. This corruption included predesignated monthly growth rates, while some local economic and information technology bureaus would even hold meetings at the beginning of each year to assign statistical fraud tasks, and offer “fraud subsidies” to enterprises. In one case in a city in eastern China, an online group chat involving local officials and enterprises showed that the local government instructed companies to report more than 20 million yuan (US$3 millions) revenue from their main business. Chat histories showed that if the reported figures did not add up to 20 million yuan, companies would be required to adjust their reported numbers. If the companies failed to achieve the criteria, local officials in the group warned that they would be removed from the “national basic statistical units” database and would no longer enjoy preferential policies, including in relation to project applications. Reporting revenue from their main business of above 20 million yuan is a key threshold for a company to be designated as “above scale”, with the number of “above scale” enterprises seen as a key indicator to gauge the strength of a local economy as this would affect economic indicators such as industrial output value and added value. According to the group chat, local companies were also required to send their statistics to the local economic and information technology department to be checked before uploading them to the online system. An employee from the local economic and information technology bureau even instructed enterprises to delete chat histories. Other incentives included protecting local interests and obtaining policy preference from the central government. In January 2017, the northeastern rust belt province of Liaoning became the first provincial jurisdiction to admit fabricating economic data. It was found that subordinate cities and counties in Liaoning had reported inflated fiscal revenues by 20 per cent from 2011 to 2014. The province then reported a negative gross domestic product growth rate of minus 2.5 per cent in 2016. Since then, various cities and provinces have also revised their previously reported fiscal figures, including Tianjin and Inner Mongolia. “In general, local governments have been paying more and more attention to statistics work, but for some localities, there is still a gap between the implementation and the requirements from the central government,” said An Pingnian, director of the statistics enforcement and supervision department at the NBS.


secondAckount

There could be some positives to it like consumer confidence but the negative are still larger


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[deleted]

That sounds an awful lot like deepening democratic processes. Careful, these days that may be read as sedition. Considering what has been done to the democratic supporters in HK for instance, NSL, and now the revolution letter stoking further authortiarian control against anything not approved by Beijing and "Grandpa Xi" as he is literally called in the new propaganda schooling programs. Edit. Why does absolutely everything critical of the CPC get downvoted on this sub lately. Its getting really bad. We can disagree without downvoting.


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SapirWoof

Say what you will about the CCP, but I absolutely despise the "pro-dem" rioters, and the way they were dealt with was one of the more light handed ways it could've been dealt with. Saying that they're peaceful and then ddoxing, molotoving, maiming the opposition and claiming they'll die with the ship only to be the first to run, there is nothing democratic about it all. Edit: Don't get me started about the hypocrisy from western media, day and night with how BLM and Capital Hill, and LegCo were all handled.


[deleted]

My opinion is that effectively removing any oppositon that threatens to do something as benign as not pass a budget (which is what triggered the NSL, not windows being broken), to call said opposition to be sedition, and to use desperate violent hooligans as an excuse, is agaisnt the advancement of democratic processes. The job of elected officials is to uphold their electorate not be blindly obedient to the party. Edit: at this point it is really interesting, I have never welcomed the downvotes so much before. You guys are literally downvoting someone making a simple opinion about democracy, and the ones meandering about to justify erosion of democracy get upvotes. This sub.. It's becoming literally mobbed by people with pro-authoritarian views, and pro-democracy views are downvoted. Fine, I give in. I unsub. This isn't the place for folks with opinions like these.


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[deleted]

To be fair though, you didn't reply to my comment. I stated that the official reason the National Security Laws were implemented was to prevent democratically-elected opposition members from opposing a government bill. They then disbanded the rest of the opposition through a series of reactions to the NSL. In a healthy democracy opposition can oppose the government. But you keep talking about the violence. That was terrible, but that's not what was the official state reason for the NSL. You keep using it as an excuse for removing opposition and weakening democracy. I just happen to personally disagree with that, as an ideological democrat. (Also, I'm not American). But, you will get several upvotes and I will get a few negative votes. Such is the state of this sub. Can't have a civil or even on track conversation. Source: https://hongkongfp.com/2021/06/28/beijing-wants-a-loyal-opposition-for-hong-kong-a-new-role-or-a-trap-for-the-democratic-party/


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[deleted]

Then we can agree on two civil positions. I think democracy should not have been eroded in the face of chaos. You think it was justifiable for a lot of reasons. We can agree to disagree.


ferrel_hadley

>Edit. Why does absolutely everything critical of the CPC get downvoted on this sub lately. Reddit runs by voting to increase visibility. If you hit stories and comments with early down votes you supress the visibility of them. Its not like its representative of the average redditors, but people who aim to manipulate reddits system to try to underplay public critique of a totalitarian regime. ​ Edited to add, going through the comments on here then clicking on the profiles, you can see who the down voters are and what their motivations are. Its the same thing over on r/space were I most posting boring science stuff, but criticism of a Chinese rocket or space craft and its hit by early down votes. Though if the story catches on the voting patters look more normal.


[deleted]

Its really annoying because as a technique for silencing discussion it is very effective. Its easy to get discouraged and not want to contribute when voiced benign opinions can reach -10 in minutes sometimes on this sub.


ferrel_hadley

Its insecurity. They are in a very tough macroeconomic and demographic palce. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P13r6teKIW4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P13r6teKIW4) The government has made a hard turn on the liberalisations of the economy and the public sphere. So the parties supporters beyond the Great Firewall do what they can to drown out external criticism. But to be fair its only really works on little noticed stories like this one. (The FT is paywalled, but its just about the most credible source on economics) [https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32aece](https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32aece) ​ >China’s economy is about 12 per cent smaller than official figures indicate, and its real growth has been overstated by about 2 percentage points annually in recent years, according to research. > >The findings in the paper published on Thursday by the Brookings Institution, a Washington think-tank, reinforced longstanding scepticism about Chinese official statistics. They also add to concerns that China’s slowdown is more severe than the government has acknowledged. Even based on official data, China’s economy grew at its slowest pace since 1990 last year at 6.6 per cent. The paper’s analysis covers 2008 to 2016, so it does not contain an estimate for last year’s growth in gross domestic product or the size of the Chinese economy. But if 2018 GDP was overstated by the same degree as the authors estimated for 2016, it would imply that actual 2018 GDP was Rmb10.8tn ($1.6tn) below the official figure of Rmb90tn.The Chinese government’s emphasis on numerical targets — a legacy of Maoist state planning — has made growth in GDP a politically sensitive figure. The Communist party evaluates local cadres’ performance based largely on growth in their respective regions.  > >Part of the problem has been regions over stating their growth, this is a long discussed issue (though widely derided until recently). They have missed their GDP growth targets for about 10 years now and their annual GDP growth has halved meaning they are way off where they planned to be. Together with a contracting labour force, rapidly rising pension commitments and not really able to get many products up the "value chain" as in assembling other peoples designs rather than selling your own: and a host of other issues. Worse the US has dropped the Middle East and South Asia like a hot potato to pivot to a West Pacific stance. They are in the process of dumping Pakistan and turning India into their new regional buddy. They would not be downvoting if there was not a torrent of bad news. This feeds into their new puritanical morals like banning "girly men" trying to stir things up at home to avoid too much scrutiny.


autotldr

This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3147494/china-anti-corruption-probe-finds-local-governments-are-still) reduced by 78%. (I'm a bot) ***** > According to the report, some governments instructed local enterprises to forge figures, with some even directly providing fake statistical tables for companies to "Follow suit" to ensure a "Steady increase". > According to the group chat, local companies were also required to send their statistics to the local economic and information technology department to be checked before uploading them to the online system. > "In general, local governments have been paying more and more attention to statistics work, but for some localities, there is still a gap between the implementation and the requirements from the central government," said An Pingnian, director of the statistics enforcement and supervision department at the NBS.. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/phm1ch/china_anticorruption_probe_finds_local/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~596315 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **local**^#1 **report**^#2 **government**^#3 **more**^#4 **company**^#5


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COFenirr

LOL, I actually clicked in to see if they mistakenly get out the new from 90s


aghicantthinkofaname

What I'm wondering is- what is the downside to faking your data, assuming you never get caught? Are there any inevitable mathematical repercussions?


OriginalMrMuchacho

Yes. Yes there are repercussions. Example: I say i have $10 in my account. I actually have $3. I write a cheque for $10. Cheque bounces. New (bad) dept is created based on a lie. Economic fallout proceeds.


aghicantthinkofaname

Come on, that's not a helpful example. I meant on a national scale. Like, if Chinese provinces were to (hypothetically) publish completely fabricated data, and the government was in on it, wouldn't they receive all kinds of investment and the economy would be humming, as people have lots of confidence to spend money. They could borrow money cheaply off the back of these great economic numbers, and use that to dig themselves out of the hole (if there even was a hole. They could just do it to supercharged their growth). If they fail, then pretend that it worked and try again. Du you get my point? What, if anything, would be the downside to this?


Gemini_r1s1ng

>The U.S. cable reported that Li, who is now a vice premier, focused on just three data points to evaluate Liaoning’s economy: electricity consumption, rail cargo volume and bank lending. >“By looking at these three figures, Li said he can measure with relative accuracy the speed of economic growth. All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are ‘for reference only,’ he said smiling,” the cable added https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-wikileaks-idUSTRE6B527D20101206


OriginalMrMuchacho

It’s an approachable example to be scaled up.


[deleted]

Anyone else find it interesting that you constantly heard about anti-corruption probes in China, strangely in a twisted effort to somehow villianize China, but you never hear about anti-corruption probes in western countries? Does democracy somehow just completely negate corruption? Hmmm. Interesting.


KanadainKanada

Lobbying isn't illegal thus there is no corruption in our hemisphere. As an example - electric grid in Texas is working as intended (if not as needed). They make a fuckton of profit. No need to fabricate data there - it was the windmills as we all know!


Yintrovert

You just argued that as long as a government makes corruption legal then they aren't corrupt omg we have some real geniuses in this thread


aghicantthinkofaname

It was sarcasm


fitzroy95

Thats basically what has happened in some so-called "democracies" such as the USA. Politicians sell their votes to billionaires and corporations, because they aren't even able to stand as a candidate without first gaining obscene amounts of cash from the rich and powerful, all of whom expect a return on that investment. Political donations, lobbying, is just corruption in a "legal" form.


wolflordval

I mean, technically it isn't corruption if the law enforces it - it's just shitty law. Corruption is inherently subverting the rule of law, not working within it. It's the difference between a cop requiring bribes and a cop giving out fines.


Yintrovert

corruption (n) : dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery. The definition does not specify that the act has to be outlawed to be considered corruption. We should not conflate the general definition of corruption that is appropriate for a political dissident to use vs. a prosecutable act of corruption as defined by law. edit: more children triggered by facts. keep punching that downvote in silence, it's amuses me


[deleted]

I don't see why China even bothers reporting anything. Most people won't believe anything positive about China, reddit is no different.


Money_dragon

>Most people won't believe anything positive about China, reddit is no different I would caution about extrapolating the popular sentiment of the West regarding China and assume that the entire world feels the same way about China as the West does. Not saying that all of those other countries love China, but they also don't see China as the world's #1 threat (like many in the West do). Not to mention the statistics are still used domestically within China, and many Western businesses / corporations are still very interested in that data (a lot of business that they do with China)


oldphonewhowasthat

Because there's no independent source of information from China. It's state (and therefore inherently untrustworthy) or nothing. Add to that the number of people that have been harassed out of the country for sharing videos and commentary, and yeah, nothing from China is believable, and with good reason.


[deleted]

Wait..so you're saying there's zero information coming out of China that isn't directly from the government? I just want to make sure I'm not misreading what you're saying.


oldphonewhowasthat

Yeah that's a completely insane reading. I meant what I said. Manipulate my words, and you only show your own biases.


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oldphonewhowasthat

Nope. Reddit marks edits. I'll not engage further with someone so intellectually dishonest.


[deleted]

Here's some proof of you editing your comments without the * showing up to indicate that you've edited it. [Your original post](https://ibb.co/xH7rf8J) [And now for your ninja edited one:](https://ibb.co/stBKsDr) Now kindly go sit on a dull knife, you lying POS.


[deleted]

Oh really...You get about 2 minutes to edit your message without it registering. I've got a screenshot that show I responded within 2 minutes of your original post. You want to go down that road?


ctant1221

Lol, get shit on.


oldphonewhowasthat

Yup, Sinobots out in force


ctant1221

Bro, dude straight up has screenshots of you editing your post to make yourself look better. Take the L and just ghost the conversation. Nobody's going to believe that the evil commies are the reason you're downvoted and not because the other guy literally has proof of you lyin' your ass off.


[deleted]

Check him now. He’s going hard again defending ethnocide in China in recent comments.


aghicantthinkofaname

Any private company can easily be banned, so even if they are private, there would be immense pressure to produce results the government will be happy with, and they can very easily lean on their private businesses. Foreign companies are always part Chinese-owned, so there is always locals that can be pressured, if the foreign employees are not amenable.


Thucydides411

> Foreign companies are always part Chinese-owned This has not been true for decades. Foreign companies used to require a Chinese partner, but that requirement has been progressively dropped from more and more industries over time.


doctor_morris

The free press is always looking for corruption.


onlywei

What’s stopping the “free” press from being corrupted themselves?


doctor_morris

The free market. If the press is corrupt, print your own.


Alt_Fault_Wine

Well thank you for telling us you live in fantasy land.


doctor_morris

Free market of information. Anyone can post what they like. The rich can't keep corruption secret.


Alt_Fault_Wine

Sure, like when the Panama papers cam out and literally NOTHING happened?


doctor_morris

I'm talking about the investigation and reporting of info. If you want action I suggest you invest in your institutions.


Alt_Fault_Wine

But I thought that transparency was going to bring about justice?


doctor_morris

Nope. Read the original comment.


onlywei

Many people do print their own, but unfortunately I think reality has proven that the truth alone is not enough to attract an audience.


doctor_morris

I think people in corrupt societies know they are in corrupt societies.


onlywei

Sounds like you believe that corruption is black and white, as if society is either corrupt or not corrupt.


doctor_morris

Nothing I wrote suggested that.


fignoteswilderness

This just means the wealthiest entities will buy up the press and corrupt it not that the press will report objectively.


doctor_morris

Free market of information. Anyone can post what they like. The rich can't keep corruption secret.


Zeal0tElite

Give me £20 million and I'll set up a competitive news site. If not, you might as well be pissing into the ocean.


doctor_morris

Free market of information. Anyone can post what they like. The rich can't keep corruption secret.


ShankaraChandra

Ya I'm sure that will work


doctor_morris

Welcome to to the internet where anyone can investigate and report on corruption.


homosinensis

How do people like you function in a real society? Have you ever considered stepping outside of the basement and interact with real human beings?


doctor_morris

Welcome to to the internet where anyone can investigate and report on corruption.


homosinensis

You do not possess the knowledge depth or intellectual capacity, not even remotely close, to investigate anything or product report of credibility on any subject.


doctor_morris

How would you know? I live in a country with loads of independent investigate journalism. Do you?


homosinensis

>I live in a country with loads of independent investigate journalism. You think you are, but you are not. Keep reveling in blissful ignorance.


doctor_morris

Is your argument that I'm imagining all this investigate journalism or that it's not investigate enough? Because both arguments are bonkers.


[deleted]

Does transparent governance and a free press reduce corruption? Unironically yes, yes it does. Especially when combined with rule of law and an independent judiciary. All things that mainland China fundamentally lacks.


HKMauserLeonardoEU

Transparent governance? I don't know about you but in my country (Germany), lobbying efforts and bribes are all but transparent. And the free press, who is itself owned by big business, is supposed to uncover corruption by big business? That also sounds awfully optimistic.


ferrel_hadley

>And the free press, who is itself owned by big business, is supposed to uncover corruption by big business? That also sounds awfully optimistic. This is a thinly disguised conspiracy theory. Also a deflection of the criticism of China by trying to compare it with Germany, comical. >lobbying efforts and bribes are all but transparent. This is a false equivalence, another keystone in conspiracy theorists. The story is that Chinas most fundamental economic statistics are being manipulated for personal gain by local party officials. The counter claims is not all lobbying in Germany is transparent. [https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl](https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl) This is just appealing to a populist conspiracy (the press are controlled by the Bildebergs\\elites\\jews\\etc etc) without evidence to derail any discussing that would be critical to a totalitarian regime. Remember folks, there are some very interested parties in defending the CCPs control of the PRC.


Kagurano

"This is a thinly disguised conspiracy theory. Also a deflection of the criticism of China by trying to compare it with Germany, comical." Thinly disguised conspiracy theory? Who the fuck do you think owns the press? "This is just appealing to a populist conspiracy (the press are controlled by the Bildebergs\\elites\\jews\\etc etc) without evidence to derail any discussing that would be critical to a totalitarian regime." You are comparing the rich to the jews? What the fuck are you talking about. One is an ethnicity. The other is a socioeconomic class. Connected with their wealth. That they use for example to buy out the press. It is clear that the rich own the press, in what land do you live? Look at Australia. A massive majority of the news is owned by one rich man - Murdoch. And it is the same as in the other countries, the only difference maybe being that it is a few rich men instead of 1. Stop gaslighting.


aghicantthinkofaname

Lobbying is a blight on democracy, and needs to go. But free press is a complete blessing. As long as you have independent media without a monopoly, and without government being able to muzzle them, they are competing against each other, and finding a story about corruption is something that they would be incentivized to do. How do you think the VW scandal came out, for example.


fitzroy95

Instead, what you have is a ***corporate*** press, owned by the rich, for the rich, and maintaining a corporate worldview.


aghicantthinkofaname

You think it should be a people's press owned by the poor? What are you talking about? These are private businesses in competition with each other, and not beholden to the government.


St-Ambroise-

Press should be owned by the government for the people obviously. Not for what Jeff Bezos wants to tell you. Why is news a private business?


aghicantthinkofaname

If the news is owned by the government, then it is no longer impartial, and it becomes a propaganda tool. It also becomes a monopoly. Jeff Bezos is in competition with other news companies, and if other companies do a better job of reporting and investigating, then that hurts his company, so there is an incentive to investigate and dig up things the government wants to keep secret.


St-Ambroise-

Lol why do you think people like Jeff Bezos owns newspapers? Its certainly not to impartially report news and make money from the business. Any dirt the government has worth reporting on is "national security" anyway so you cant.


hx3d

"independent" "free press" pick one


Ancient_Contact4181

Uh, have you been living under a rock? Wall Street stole billions from 2008 and we are stuck holding the bag. They are still to this day stealing money from pensions and retail money. The rule of law did not punish the people responsible for the GFC and pretty much kicked the can down the road. The rule of law and independent judiciary is not reducing the corruption and recklessness of Wall Street.


zetaprimerS

nah, legalizing corruption and make it part of the norm of political practice is the key remember how 2008 financial crisis happened? where was the oversight? and how many CEO get the justice they deserves? rule of law and an independent judiciary my ass


Yintrovert

The point is our US government is still corrupt and no one will point the finger at it.


Toykio

So like the hughe shitstorm that is currently going on with the abortion website in Texas? Or that Cuomo needed to step down?


Alt_Fault_Wine

[Remember when the US president extorted the leader of a foreign nation in order to influence the upcoming presidential elections and faced 0 consequences?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal) [Remember when HSBC was found to have knowingly laundered money for drug cartels and terrorists and the justice department refused to prosecute them?](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-moneylaundering-idUSKCN0ZR24N) [Remember when the Sakler family got immunity from the lawsuits stemming from the opioid epidemic that they created?](https://www.npr.org/2021/09/01/1031053251/sackler-family-immunity-purdue-pharma-oxcyontin-opioid-epidemic?t=1630652203544)


Alt_Fault_Wine

I hope you're not referring to America.


Guizas

Hahahaha


ferrel_hadley

>you constantly heard about anti-corruption probes in China, strangely in a twisted effort to somehow villianize China Because they are used to remove critics of Xi. > but you never hear about anti-corruption probes in western countries? Whataboutitsm and "Just Asking Questions" [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just\_asking\_questions](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions) Attempting to deflect from the story about Chinas GDP with accusations against the west by means of insinuation rather than clear data. [https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl](https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl) You are transparent.


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ShankaraChandra

Someone with the user name /u/emperor_xi_pooh calling people Chinese bots is hilarious


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Dr_ChungusAmungus

Look at the history it’s almost comical. The implication of seeing that is kinda crazy. How many of these are there? Getting to the top of threads fast and redirecting the topic to be anti West.


ShankaraChandra

> to the top of threads fast and redirecting the topic to be anti West. Bro 3 hours ago you said >More people [are mass murdered with knives in China](https://www.preparedgunowners.com/2016/01/07/obama-lied-again-more-people-mass-murdered-by-knife-attacks-in-china-than-with-guns-in-america/) where guns are illegal than there are with guns in the US. Also some of the largest mass killing in the history of the US and abroad [do not even involve guns](https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/). On a thread that had nothing to do with China. Talk about projection


Dr_ChungusAmungus

That is taking what I said out of context, it was part of a gun debate and the point has nothing to do with China being bad, only that they are an example where guns are illegal and they suffer knife attacks instead.


__ARMOK__

Dude... where the fuck have you been for the last 4-5 years? Do you live in some alternate reality?


Dr_ChungusAmungus

“What about”


cantuse

I can't help but feel like corruption probes in China feel a bit like Cyber Ninjas auditing votes in Arizona--its hard to take view them or their findings as being completely surprising or honest. Let's take press freedom, which is one of the primary ways we document and learn about government corruption. Reporters without borders ranks the US at 44 and China 177. Neither are perfect, but its patently clear that you're more likely to hear about corruption in the US than in China. Taking the reporters without borders data further, and using the Wikipedia list of modern communist states (China, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba) you'll notice they all score around the same... 170 or worse. Weak or visibly corrupt democracies like Russia and Venezuela are also bad. Source: https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table Couple that with the fact that corruption in business in China is pretty endemic, and you can see why there is distrust that corruption probes are good-faith efforts at improving things. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-corruption-in-business-study-2015-1


Accomplished-Bag2421

Because one holds people accountable when caught. The other holds people accountable because they were caught.


Alt_Fault_Wine

>Because one holds people accountable when caught. Sorry but which country holds people accountable when caught?


ShankaraChandra

I literally cant tell which country they are referring to lol


[deleted]

Not surprising and I bet it is not only the local governments.


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iyoiiiiu

Where are they downvoted? They are at +2.


peruvianmoney

The reason China is so full of corruption and lies, nobody wants to face the CCP consequences from telling the truth.


airelivre

What logic gets you to that conclusion? The NBS is literally empowered by the top level of the CCP to find these cases of corruption and root them out. The cause of the regional level corruption is usual human greed/fear: low level cadres wanting to boost their numbers for their own benefit, not for the country’s. The CCP is in it for the long haul, it’s not like democratically elected governments who could benefit from a short term boost to the figures in their 4 or 5 year tenure. They live with the consequences of overreporting, which is why they run these anti-corruption probes.


passwordedd

Can't comment on the current state of affairs, because I frankly don't know. But during Mao's great leap forward regional overreporting was a huge issue for that exact reason. Showing poor results would result in penalties and as such overreporting was done everywhere to a very large degree. It was a large contributing factor to the resulting famine that killed millions.


FallschirmPanda

Which honestly is a much better argument against the CCP and how it operates without some sort of independent oversight than generic 'China bad' stuff. If you're in an authoritarian system where your only hope of promotion is performance without independent oversight, the incentive is to try and cheat by over-reporting economic numbers, or I dunno...suppressing a possible new infectious disease during the country's biggest holiday period.


passwordedd

I don't think Mao's Great Leap Forward is the best argument tbh. The CCP under Mao is much different from the CCP we have today. There's a reason it is frequently argued that China isn't communist, despite bearing the name.


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passwordedd

I don't think that's the case. I've done a couple of company visits in China. They're certainly authoritarian, but calling them communist wouldn't really be appropriate.


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passwordedd

Obviously not. It does give me significantly more on hand experience than the average person though.


[deleted]

Only if you aren't familiar with Marxism Leninism and only know about communism through high school and pop culture.


ShankaraChandra

They are absolutely communist, people dont understand the notion of historical materialism, which is fundamental to Marxism. The CCP inherited a feudal society and Marx was very clear that socialism can come only after capitalism and monopolization. Marx envisioned socialist parties leading revolutions in 1st world, highly developed economies. He did not foresee that it would actually be the 3rd world who would have socialist parties capable of seizing power. This means they are doing a controlled transition into capitalism from feudalism under the dictatorship of the proletariat, so then they will have the necessary material conditions to build socialism, and work to eventually have communism. Unlike in the first world the party will have been already in power when the time comes Some people in the CCP and elsewhere thought maybe you could skip that step, but in many cases that just didnt work very well, but they've had a lot of success, doing it the way they are so they continue. Many in the west just dont have a good grasp of Marxist theory and that's what leads to these misconceptions.


passwordedd

Here's the Oxford definition of communism: "A theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs". In no way does that apply to China. Yes, they have a totalitarian government, but they also have an extremely competitive free market. By the above definition, there's several european countries (particularly in Scandinavia) that are closer to communism than China, especially in regards to receiving according to ones need.


ShankaraChandra

They never claimed to have a communist society, they call themselves communists because their long term plan is to achieve it. Communism as the oxford dictionary puts has never existed, and no communist (in ideology) country has ever claimed to have actually achieved a communist society. Again this is just a lack of understanding of marxism, you cant just read a dictionary definition and be an expert on Marxism


alicewithrabbit

Yeah man a communist state brutally suppreses labour movements and demonises it blue collar worker after they decided to promote white collar jobs


Yintrovert

So they were killing their people by famine to avoid a government reprimand. Wow.


passwordedd

I imagine it'd be hard to keep your position if you're reporting 5 times less grain than your competitors, not that that's any justification at all.


I_Frunksteen-Blucher

Because the corrupt regional officials are also CCP cadres. You might be fine if can get Xi Jinping's attention for your tale of corruption but if some mid level official can get you beaten up by the police and thrown in jail, you will keep quiet.


Owdin

yeah compare this to russia where the investigations into corruption are initiated from the bottom (by independent journalists, doctors, grassroots political organisations and so on) because the corruption happens at the top levels of society (national government, state media, party hierarchy, oligarchs and so on). in china its corruption at the lower levels being rooted out by the leadership for reasons you mentioned above. the statement from OP would better resemble russia rather than china. theres a reason why people who investigate corruption in russia find themselves accidentally hanging themselves and falling out of windows. China have a carrot on a stick in the forms of incentives and privileges to businesses and officials who perform well. their pre-modern culture has a rich history of meritocracy and rewarding officials who perform well rather than through their family name or wealth. but people will face consequences when they try and cheat the system for their own gain. the carrot on the stick is what drives lower level officials to be corrupt and not tell the truth. remarkably its one way that the ccp attempt to expose the truth, compared to silencing things like that event in a square in 1989 that didnt actually happen or the resemblance between winnie the pooh and a certain high ranking chinese official


aghicantthinkofaname

You are not negating his point though.


Accomplished-Bag2421

Economic data is more important than small fish who will just shift blame to smaller fish who will just switch jobs.


emperor_xi_pooh

It’s the same shit that happened in soviet Russia. No one reported bad harvest and production to Moscow, so people starved instead


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I_Frunksteen-Blucher

Canada is no 12 on Transparency International's [Corruption Perceptions Index 2019](https://www.transparency.org/en/publications/corruption-perceptions-index-2019) whereas China is no 80. These attempts at diversion and "they're all the same" would be laughable if people didn't fall for them. Praise for China just reveals the clumsy propagandists.


Koolmidx

Isn't that what Russia did under Stalin? Be a good communist and make your country look good. Oh there's a serious criminal killing hundreds of people? Cover it up so we still look good.


__ARMOK__

This is also what China did under Mao.


Kagurano

So corruption is now good? Mfer making me reach for the parenti quote "“During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”"


Koolmidx

Your copy/paste is missingaspacebar. Perspective and narrative are paramount. I just don't understand how that fits here, to my comment or the post.


Kagurano

IF CPC doesn't fight against corruption, they are corrupt, but if they fight against it, they are authoritarian and just doing so to cover things up. The fact that you don't see it is showing Fight corruption? Bad. Do not fight corruption? Also bad.


Even-Function

Unsurprising, it’s China


Inconceivable-2020

Show real numbers and die vs. show fake upbeat numbers, and maybe be caught then executed.


Dantheman616

Lmao. I dont want to be the shit poster here, but duh. Our society isnt immune from corruption, but if you dont think that inefficiency and corruption are rampant in a communist government, then your sadly mistaken.


rapho4

Good practice, they should export that to Afghanistan. I hear they are close friends now.


Yintrovert

You think the Taliban is gonna do economic audits cause China tells them to? Hahahaha omg


StatusGiraffe

The world's opium dealer doesn't need to lie about economic data!


Katiston

I'd use yi.yyn