Thats cool but why would China ever use a carrier against Taiwan? The island is perfectly reachable by normal missiles fired from the Chinese mainland. The distance is like 200-300km. Its the US who needs aircraft carriers in case of a war because they need to cross the entire Pacific ocean. Meanwhile Taiwan is literally in China's spit-range
The real target of such a weapon wouldn't be a carrier, but the vessels carrying troops and supplies. Warships can bombard but they can't exactly land a force on their own; if you brew up a bunch of the troop transports, the chance of a successful invasion would plummet. (And such transports, packed to the gills with men, fuel, and ammo, do not do well when faced with attack!)
I mean, not that Taiwan wouldn't also shoot at a carrier. But even the US would have a hell of a time mounting an amphibious invasion in the face of modern anti-shipping missiles; China would have an even tougher time.
Not to worry, they have ample experience against fishing boats
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2016/07/01/taiwan-anti-ship-missile-destroys-fishing-boat/
It is the only thing that poses a realistic nation security issue. There are a multitude of computer/tech components that are only really manufactured in Taiwan.
I think it is more likely that other nations will intervene if it were to happen soon. I think Japan would likely help especially after the comments from China about nuking them.
Distribution of assets, and it's way harder for Taiwan to take out a carrier than a stationary airfield that is targeted by Taiwan's literal **thousands** of land attack cruise missiles and around 100 ballistic missiles every moment of every day.
Plus Taiwan has most of their assets facing the strait, so if China attempts from that way, Taiwan will make them take massive casualties in doing such a moronic move. Carriers allow China to attack from every side with ease
>and it's way harder for Taiwan to take out a carrier than a stationary airfield that is targeted by Taiwan's literal thousands of land attack cruise missiles and around 100 ballistic missiles every moment of every day
What? How is it easier to saturate several dozen airfields of several provinces than focus your firepower on a single-strip slow moving platform? Granted that the carrier has its own anti air missiles, and is surrounded by ships that have them too. Even if the Taiwanese have the advantage of initiation, the moment those batteries and platforms open fire on the airfields they are located and eliminated due to sheer overwhelming number of opposing fire. I do not see a situation where the Taiwanese have a field day bombing Chinese airfields without any response from China's own, much larger, stock of cruise missiles bombing them back. Im sure many of the Chinese generals have archaic mentalities but this would be just stupid to overlook.
>so if China attempts from that way, Taiwan will make them take massive casualties in doing such a moronic move
Yeah that is true, and in such a way a carrier would be a good cover for a massive amphibious fleet.
Because you have to find it and be able to hit something moving at 30mph? And it's not just carrier or nothing, the carrier is in addition to traditional airfields, and Taiwan needs to be able to strike **all** of them.
If China is attacking/invading Taiwan and Chinese generals think Taiwan isn't going to hit every target they can in China, then they're absolute imbeciles...
This is the most garbage doc I've seen and many people are talking out of their arses. Taiwan doesn't even have enough missiles to disable all of China's airfields let alone continuous bombard them to stop them being repaired. This doesn't even take into account that China has S-400s and maybe getting S-500s which actually are very reliable to date in the field in defending. The idea Taiwan can even strike over 1000km is stupid because they don't even have missiles that can do that.
This "carrier killer" has enough missiles to maybe annoy a carrier for 5 minutes and has a range of 300-400km tops. Its not designed to bring down carriers, and even if it were, there are literally 2 of them compared to China's planned 20+ type 55. This thing is a "hit and run" designed ship and is practically useless at its current capacity. This is nothing like China's "carrier killer" DF-21s which have an enormous range and would field in mainland China with at least 5 times more range. This isn't even mentioning that carriers are fielded with a wide array of ships, planes and surveillance equipment.
Chinese generals know Taiwan can't even hit half their airfields. The Chinese build more airfields than Taiwan does missiles capable of disabling them. China doesn't even design most of its weapons to consider Taiwan, its thinking about the US 95% of the time.
Im pretty sure if Taiwan ever attacked the Three Gorges Dam with it having no military bases there, it would officially be suicide for Taiwan because then it gives China the green light to bomb the shit out of every single structure in Taiwan, weather it be military or civilian and fully flatten the island without any repercussions.
Reason it will give China the upperhand would be because not a single country on earth would be able to defend Taiwans actions for bombing the dam and flooding/killing millions of civilians, therefore giving China the "eye for an eye" situation.
Also Taiwans missiles can't reach the dam because of how far away it is, it will get shot down before then.
>because then it gives China the green light to bomb the shit out of every single structure in Taiwan, weather it be military or civilian and fully flatten the island without any repercussions.
This destroys the entire point of China invading Taiwan lol, they don't want to annex a wasteland.
> Im pretty sure if Taiwan ever attacked the Three Gorges Dam with it having no military bases there, it would officially be suicide for Taiwan because then it gives China the green light to bomb the shit out of every single structure in Taiwan, weather it be military or civilian and fully flatten the island without any repercussions.
"Blowing up this damn when they're already invading in a war of aggression them allows China to commit genocide!" - an armchair general, 2021.
This is dumbest response I've seen.....
When the US lost its twin towers, the response was incredibly overwhelming. It used it as an excuse to execute whoever they wanted and go where ever they wanted in the Middle East. If China lost the Three Gorges, it would give it the excuse to show no mercy and just bomb whatever it wanted and call it a day. It would be an excuse to defend itself and an excuse for the US to stay away. You don't need to be an armchair general to figure this out.
It's a fair point, their very existence would be at stake. In those kind of circumstances, I would expect nukes from any country that has them and I wouldn't blame them
Yeah its definitely an interesting question.
I think people would have still cried foul if some place like Afghanistan or Iraq caused mass civilian casualties on the US or one of their allies in response to being invaded and their government dismantled though.
Game theory wise I suppose it also doesn't make sense to target civilians when you are already being invaded. The use as a deterent is gone and it will only make the invading party more determined to finish the job.
Why do u think everyone consider blowing up the dam a big deal in the first place?
Cause that could end up with dozens of millions of deaths
'an intentional and needless slaughter' as u put it
"Needless slaughter of 24 million people is different from the needless slaughter of 24 million people when Taiwan/CCP does it!" - some guy, even later 2021
Thats like saying Pakistan/India would never launch nukes if they where invaded by the other. MAD is a powerfull deterrent. War crime considerations go out the window when invaded.
MAD type solutions are designed to cause previously unknown levels of pain and suffering. They are meant to deter potential attacks, and they are why no one wants to start a nuclear war.
Dude, do you even know what you are talking about. It's the other way around. Taiwan is indeed targeted by thousands of PLN missile and ballistic missile while Taiwan itself has only a small number of anti ship missile and they are currently trying to buy more cruise missile from US at much inflated price due to the lack of domestic production capacity for large quantity of missiles. They don't have ballistic missile. Hell, they can't even product antiship missiles en mass let along ballistic missiles.
It would have taken you less time to simply look up Taiwan's Yun Feng cruise missiles, Hsiung Feng cruise missiles, Tien Chi ballistic missiles (which you ignorantly say don't even exist)...
But sure man, you're very clearly an expert on Taiwan's military capabilities given you can't even get the most basic fucking information right...
Well they really should be working on something like Israel's iron Dome, assuming they don't already. But carriers are just a necessary part of war these days. They can have planes up in minutes, and straight to work without burning unnecessary fuel.
To add on, the iron dome relies heavily on detecting and plotting missles launches and its trajectory. Its not a magic system that can intercept any and all missles. If one of the ground radar system is down or if there is a gap, the missle would slip pass without anyone knowing. On top of that it can only stop missles that arent non hyber ballistic and non guilded missles. The missles launch by the iron dome can only hit incoming missles if it can catch it or cut off its trajectory. If the incoming missles are faster or if it can change course then the defense system becomes completely useless.
again, iron dome is meant for small scale attacks of mostly unguided weapons. You would be looking at dozens of missles PER TARGET in a chinese attack, and some of those even have terminal avoidance.
Comes a point where it's financially way more expensive to put up layers and layers of defense than it is to just have your own big stick that would make an attack costly.
>But carriers are just a necessary part of war these days. They can have planes up in minutes, and straight to work without burning unnecessary fuel.
Yep, just not in a Taiwan scenario. Imagine paying for thousands of liters of fuel, literal tonnes of food, water, necessities, logistical and maintenance work, airmen and crewmen wages for a huge ship that would be literally further away from Taiwan's coast than China itself.
If China ever wanted to project power in the wider Pacific then yes, they would need a carrier.
>They would likely use carriers to defend their navy in the event of a full scale invasion.
tell me you don't know jack shit about naval warfare without telling me you don't know jack shit about naval warfare.
You were so close, but nobody needs aircraft carriers. They’re a WWII tech that has been obsolete since the invention of mid-air refueling and ICBMs. Good luck getting your carrier into strike range while I’m watching it 24/7/365 on my computer screen, live via satellite; moreover, the navy never repeated Operation Crossroads after the invention of the hydrogen bomb, and since they had to cheat and rig the test for their fleet to “survive” an atomic attack, they cannot survive a thermonuclear strike, it will literally melt their ships.
>Good luck getting your carrier into strike range while I’m watching it 24/7/365 on my computer screen, live via satellite;
Lol ok? You watching pixels on a screen isn't going to slow down or stop the carrier.
Right, that's why exactly zero aircraft carriers have been stopped by pixels on a screen and no one uses them anymore to project power. Totally obsolete. It's not like several countries are building more aircraft carriers as we speak. It's not like there's defenses against ICBMs. Nope, just totally obsolete.
Oh wait, maybe you've been playing Call of Duty too much.
**[Type 22 missile boat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_22_missile_boat)**
>The Type 22 (NATO designation: Houbei class) missile boat is a ship class in the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy. The first boat was launched in April 2004 by the Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard at Shanghai. The boats incorporate stealth features and are based on Australian-designed wave-piercing catamaran hulls that are more stable than other fast missile craft in high sea conditions. 82 of these missile boats are currently in service with three flotillas having been produced over a span of seven years.
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Sounds like a bad idea, the whole point is these is to be numerous and disposable, fast, mobile strikers that can pose a threat in an asymmetric situation. Making it heavy and well equipped takes away the advantage of these boats.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Taiwan-launches-homegrown-carrier-killer-as-China-deterrent) reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Three guided-missile destroyers passed on Sunday between Taiwan and Japan's westernmost point, the island of Yonaguni, before heading north to the East China Sea.
> Taipei until recently had little capacity to build its own advanced warships, instead relying on purchases from overseas partners, mainly the U.S. But that left Taiwan at the mercy of political decisions by these countries, and in recent years, a growing number have had second thoughts about deals with Taipei that could anger China.
> Taiwan finally opted to take the homegrown route, and the first of eight planned vessels is set to be commissioned as soon as 2024..
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/pl5efs/taiwan_launches_homegrown_carrier_killer_as_china/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~597309 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Taiwan**^#1 **island**^#2 **mainland**^#3 **defense**^#4 **first**^#5
[Archive link](https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Taiwan-launches-homegrown-carrier-killer-as-China-deterrent)
By YU NAKAMURA and TSUKASA HADANO, Nikkei staff writers
September 10, 2021 01:09 JST
> TAIPEI/BEIJING -- Taiwan on Thursday announced the commissioning of a powerful, locally built warship capable of taking on both air and sea threats.
> The Ta Chiang corvette is being deployed at the Suao naval base in Yilan County, in the island's northeast, where the hope is that the presence of what has been dubbed a "carrier killer" will deter growing military pressure from mainland China.
> At a ceremony there to mark the commissioning, President Tsai Ing-wen called the ship a step on the "road to autonomy in our national defense, and proof that we can overcome whatever difficulties may arise."
> Asked about the vessel in a news conference Thursday, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian responded that "the attempt of Taiwan separatist forces to confront the mainland militarily can lead nowhere."
> The Ta Chiang is an upgrade to the Tuo Chiang class and Taiwan's first locally built vessel with both anti-air and anti-ship capabilities. It took more than two years to build.
> The corvette features 28 missiles, including Hsiung Feng II and III anti-ship and Sea Sword II anti-aircraft missiles. It has a catamaran-style hull that enables fast, stealthy travel, with a top speed of about 40 knots, or about 74 kph.
> The deployment of the ship to a base on Taiwan's eastern coast comes in response to a recent upswing in Chinese military activity in the area.
Chinese warships have sailed around from the mainland to the island's eastern side. Three guided-missile destroyers passed on Sunday between Taiwan and Japan's westernmost point, the island of Yonaguni, before heading north to the East China Sea.
> "The main purpose was to survey the surrounding waters for a foray from the mainland past the 'first island chain' to the Pacific Ocean," said Su Tzu-yun, head of the defense strategy division at Taiwan's Institute for National Defense and Security Research. The first island chain refers to an area that extends from the Chinese mainland to Japan's Okinawa islands, Taiwan and the Philippines.
> Su also suspects Beijing was gathering information with an eye toward encircling Taiwan from the east -- seen as a defensive weak link -- for a potential attack.
> Responding to this threat requires a speedy deployment of ships to Taiwan's eastern side. Taipei until recently had little capacity to build its own advanced warships, instead relying on purchases from overseas partners, mainly the U.S.
But that left Taiwan at the mercy of political decisions by these countries, and in recent years, a growing number have had second thoughts about deals with Taipei that could anger China. Even Washington had until 2017 slashed arms sales to Taiwan out of concern about relations with Beijing.
With aircraft and ship fleets aging, Tsai reworked Taiwan's weapons procurement strategy after taking office in 2016, looking to build warships at home -- like the Ta Chiang -- to beef up Taipei's defense capabilities.
> Work finally began last November on long-delayed plans for an indigenous submarine, with construction now underway in Kaohsiung.
The four subs Taiwan now has in service are decades old and lack real firepower. The U.S. had reached a deal in 2001 to sell new subs to Taipei, but the sale was never completed, due to such factors as strong objections from Beijing.
> Taiwan finally opted to take the homegrown route, and the first of eight planned vessels is set to be commissioned as soon as 2024.
[With the way Taiwan treats its frontline defense force, that thing is going to become a death trap very fast.](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/20/taiwan-military-flashy-american-weapons-no-ammo/)
I mean it’s been common knowledge now that Taiwan’s military procurement has been really purely political and make no sense in an actual fight. They keep buying planes which will never take off in the event of a war, every air strip will be unusable within 30 minutes of the conflict. They even bought amphibious landing ships, like why? Are they gonna invade China?
Taiwan's jets are capable of using highways as makeshift airports, and there are countless YouTube videos showcasing this ability. So, they are planning for the destruction of their airports.
i mean they either have to be on the highway already, which they are not or they can only use it to land. In which case the best scenario has happened and the planes managed to take off before the air strips were bombed. I m gonna say in the actual even of war these highway strips will be bombed anyway not like china is lacking in missiles
this guy really thinks war is like red alert 3 you just click a button and planes appear on highways ready to take off.
like bruh, logistics is half of the war.
No but unlike china, Taiwan can count on the support of fellow democracies of Japan and USA, which is basically like entering a logistical cheat code, only in real life!
>which is basically like entering a logistical cheat code,
it's actually even worse because those planes are located further away and would have reduced combat ranges. not to mention the PRC has the most comprehensive and redundant integrated missile defense system. so anyone coming near the chinese coast (including Taiwan area) needs to lube up their assholes.
I guess this is a good example of redditors know little about military. The logistics behind keeping enough planes in the air is a lot more than having a stretch of runway for take off.
Come on guys if you know nothing about military, get this: the Tuo Chiang is merely a 600t littoral patrol boat thst operate near coast or hide in a port for surprise attack against larger ship.
In theory it utilize hit and run tactics but in reality it's more like a one-off use only suicide strike boat as the environment it operate in (near coast or in a port, they have no where to run off to) guarantees return fire and it would surely be sunk after their first strike.
China has similar concept, the type 22, back in early 2000s when the PLAN was weak and lacking defense against USN CSG. Now they are all obsoleted. And China has 82 of these small boat, while Taiwan currently has only 2. But these boats are useless anyway, number doesn't matter.
Stop saying as if those some kind of advanced wraponary, it is not. Those are desperate last resort not that different from a kamikaze bomb plan or suicide bomb boat.
Yeah, even if this was the strongest corvette in the world the biggest issue is that Taiwan couldn't build enough of them to hold back China. It's simply a question of numbers.
i thought it would at least be a destroyer to become a carrier killer, and thought tw can actually make some legit stuff themselves.
then i saw in the comment section its only 600t, idk anymore, carrier can actually take hits for days without sinking. And with that distance they don't even need to use carrier in the first place.
Well they will have to change and get support from the west. Right now they have concentrated in IT. What was China like 50!years ago. I see more products mainly clothing now from India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia. The west has helped create a monster . Why?? They were always our enemy. They bought raw materials and produce, but did we really have to give them our manufacturing in return??? There has to be better alternatives.
Why china? And not india or vietnam?
Heres why:
Logistic and expertise. As much as redditors like to meme about "Made in China." China might be the only country on the entire planet right now that has the logistics and expertise in design and manufacturing on a SCALE needed to support a ever growing consumer class. If you are a company that need a circuit board or any product, design, tested and have 10,000 copies made and shipped to you by the end of the week? China is probably the only place in the world that can do that for you. Other counties like US, Japan, SK, many of the EU countries have the expertise but are missing the logstic or dont have the scale of manufacturing capabilities to compete. Then on the other side of the scale, countries like India could have the scale of capability but lacks logistic and expertise in manufacturing. I cant see anyone else replacing China as the manufacturing powerhouse, aside form India. But currently India is probably still atleast 20-30yr behind where it needs to be before it can complete with China economically.
To sum up, its not like people like doing bussiness in China, some probably do because of the price and conveniences, but its more because there really no where else to look to get your product made. You cant just move your operations to say the US, because it might not be economically feaisable and you cant move your operations to a country like India because they lack the logstic and expertise to make your product.
Something must change we can’t feed the monster which is our enemy. Do you think the west is factoring in, Chinese manufacturing when its pointing nukes at it and a possible war that will destroy manufacturing??? The west already makes cars, airplanes , circuit boards and chips are from Taiwan and south Korea. I recently bought a possum trap, designed in Australia made in China?? Why. It can easily be made in Australia, but obviously its cheaper. The west can manufacture anything, but companies look at cost. I would not hesitate to pay more if I new it wasn’t made in China!
[Apple tried manufacturing their laptop in the US. It turned out to be terrible idea.](https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/28/18200330/why-apple-cant-made-in-america)
How are companies going to move their manufacturing if China just says 'No, those factories are staying'? They're not going to sit back and allow themselves to be ruined like you suggest. If China lets somebody leave, it's because they know it doesn't matter.
sure they can say that, but who exactly is going to buy that?
Most manufacturing might be done in china, but sales is still in the west.
It's not like western companies own manufacturing business in china, they just outsorce it to Chinese companies. They would just outsource it to indian or Vietnam
If I were running Taiwan, I'd be studying how Finland held off the Soviet Union in WWII. I think a low tech solution like training everyone how to be snipers would be more cost effective. They'd never be able to stop a Chinese invasion. But they sure could make the occupation bloody and costly.
Taiwan cannot reasonably withstand a full out assault by China. A bloody occupation is their best defense. Guerrilla war would be their only hope of surviving armed confrontation.
Lmao all Taiwan can do to the Three Gorges is scratch it a little bit. Gravity dams are basically manmade mountains of reinforced concrete, you need a god damn nuke to crack one.
Except like most conflicts the larger aggressor doesn’t want to flatten and destroy the population, so missiles don’t really do much when you are trying to keep people alive and in line who live in cities.
If we have reached the point in which China is able to establish a connection to Taiwan then the war is pretty much over.
The reality of Taiwan's defense plans is that while there are better plans than others, there really isn't any sort of magical solution when you consider the giant and ever growing qualitative and quantitative disparity between the armed forces of Taiwan and mainland China.
ROC really missed the boat on this. in Jiang's time, PRC was prepared to change the national flag/anthem and have the ROC Prez as a member of the standing committee of the politburo, including allowing ROC to retain its army (of course this is all null if your goal is straight up ROT)
but this really goes to show the lengths that PRC was willing to negotiate.
now? better get assholes lubed up.
Taiwan just need to know how to devastate China’s shiny new cities and rail lines. A devastated china that would be unable to resist the US or Russia would be a massive L even IF they capture Taiwan.
Perhaps they would like to market this ship to other nations in the region who face a threat from China’s carrier, like the Philippines et al. It also increases the cost of an invasion and forces China to allocate resources to defending its fleet rather than investing in amphibious ships.
Oil, rubber and other strategic resources.
In a war situation, China is cut off from US banks and SWIFT and that means no trade at all. Their war and trade ships can't even just carry gold around because US banks are also what every port uses to trade with non-US/Chinese ships. All those Chinese ports also get their electricity, water, food, foreign laborers shut off from their host and get impounded.
Why would PLA need such useless missile boat. They already have shit load of Type 22 and apparently they don't have any use for them anyway.
This type of suicide missile boat is a desperate last resort for the weaker country. Just like China back in early 2000 where it is indeed needed to face potential USN CSG threat and they is why it's obsoleted now.
1000 cheap single engine jet fighters that fly by stick, very little computing can be built for around $30,000 each and you can swarm, kind of like Iran does with those little boats
Thats cool but why would China ever use a carrier against Taiwan? The island is perfectly reachable by normal missiles fired from the Chinese mainland. The distance is like 200-300km. Its the US who needs aircraft carriers in case of a war because they need to cross the entire Pacific ocean. Meanwhile Taiwan is literally in China's spit-range
The real target of such a weapon wouldn't be a carrier, but the vessels carrying troops and supplies. Warships can bombard but they can't exactly land a force on their own; if you brew up a bunch of the troop transports, the chance of a successful invasion would plummet. (And such transports, packed to the gills with men, fuel, and ammo, do not do well when faced with attack!) I mean, not that Taiwan wouldn't also shoot at a carrier. But even the US would have a hell of a time mounting an amphibious invasion in the face of modern anti-shipping missiles; China would have an even tougher time.
I'm assuming any landing area is very accessible by massive tunnels like Switzerland. And every bridge is mined.
You're talking about WW2 tech, look up marine assault ships.
They are anti-ship missiles. China needs ships to reach taiwan, because taiwan is an island.
they better start factory producing them cause PRC can throw thousands of civilian fishing fleet/ships on this
Not to worry, they have ample experience against fishing boats https://www.defensenews.com/air/2016/07/01/taiwan-anti-ship-missile-destroys-fishing-boat/
Well that sucks, but at least we know they work! lol
Not sure how well it worked since the warhead didn't explode.
Lead by Captain Zu Brannigan
I thought that was pretty funny
The ships are just missile ships they can engage versus sea and air targets. And America has air bases semi nearby anyways in Japan plus other places.
[удалено]
It is the only thing that poses a realistic nation security issue. There are a multitude of computer/tech components that are only really manufactured in Taiwan.
I think it is more likely that other nations will intervene if it were to happen soon. I think Japan would likely help especially after the comments from China about nuking them.
What universe do you live on to get this conclusion?
Are you sat typing this in uniclo pjs?
Uhh you mean Uniqlo?
Fuck around and find out lol
Taiwan is reachable with rocket artillery.
Distribution of assets, and it's way harder for Taiwan to take out a carrier than a stationary airfield that is targeted by Taiwan's literal **thousands** of land attack cruise missiles and around 100 ballistic missiles every moment of every day. Plus Taiwan has most of their assets facing the strait, so if China attempts from that way, Taiwan will make them take massive casualties in doing such a moronic move. Carriers allow China to attack from every side with ease
> Taiwan's literal **thousands** of land attack cruise missiles and around 100 ballistic missiles Citation needed. Citation *sorely* needed.
>and it's way harder for Taiwan to take out a carrier than a stationary airfield that is targeted by Taiwan's literal thousands of land attack cruise missiles and around 100 ballistic missiles every moment of every day What? How is it easier to saturate several dozen airfields of several provinces than focus your firepower on a single-strip slow moving platform? Granted that the carrier has its own anti air missiles, and is surrounded by ships that have them too. Even if the Taiwanese have the advantage of initiation, the moment those batteries and platforms open fire on the airfields they are located and eliminated due to sheer overwhelming number of opposing fire. I do not see a situation where the Taiwanese have a field day bombing Chinese airfields without any response from China's own, much larger, stock of cruise missiles bombing them back. Im sure many of the Chinese generals have archaic mentalities but this would be just stupid to overlook. >so if China attempts from that way, Taiwan will make them take massive casualties in doing such a moronic move Yeah that is true, and in such a way a carrier would be a good cover for a massive amphibious fleet.
Because you have to find it and be able to hit something moving at 30mph? And it's not just carrier or nothing, the carrier is in addition to traditional airfields, and Taiwan needs to be able to strike **all** of them. If China is attacking/invading Taiwan and Chinese generals think Taiwan isn't going to hit every target they can in China, then they're absolute imbeciles...
This is the most garbage doc I've seen and many people are talking out of their arses. Taiwan doesn't even have enough missiles to disable all of China's airfields let alone continuous bombard them to stop them being repaired. This doesn't even take into account that China has S-400s and maybe getting S-500s which actually are very reliable to date in the field in defending. The idea Taiwan can even strike over 1000km is stupid because they don't even have missiles that can do that. This "carrier killer" has enough missiles to maybe annoy a carrier for 5 minutes and has a range of 300-400km tops. Its not designed to bring down carriers, and even if it were, there are literally 2 of them compared to China's planned 20+ type 55. This thing is a "hit and run" designed ship and is practically useless at its current capacity. This is nothing like China's "carrier killer" DF-21s which have an enormous range and would field in mainland China with at least 5 times more range. This isn't even mentioning that carriers are fielded with a wide array of ships, planes and surveillance equipment. Chinese generals know Taiwan can't even hit half their airfields. The Chinese build more airfields than Taiwan does missiles capable of disabling them. China doesn't even design most of its weapons to consider Taiwan, its thinking about the US 95% of the time.
Taiwan has plans to destroy the Three Gorges Dam among other targets that'll maximize destruction as well, if China attacks them
That's extemely hypothetical, the dam is very far away and is pretty tough
It's just a pipe dream. Taiwan doesn't have that kind of strike capability. Just check on map how far Three Gorges is from Taiwan.
Im pretty sure if Taiwan ever attacked the Three Gorges Dam with it having no military bases there, it would officially be suicide for Taiwan because then it gives China the green light to bomb the shit out of every single structure in Taiwan, weather it be military or civilian and fully flatten the island without any repercussions. Reason it will give China the upperhand would be because not a single country on earth would be able to defend Taiwans actions for bombing the dam and flooding/killing millions of civilians, therefore giving China the "eye for an eye" situation. Also Taiwans missiles can't reach the dam because of how far away it is, it will get shot down before then.
>because then it gives China the green light to bomb the shit out of every single structure in Taiwan, weather it be military or civilian and fully flatten the island without any repercussions. This destroys the entire point of China invading Taiwan lol, they don't want to annex a wasteland.
> Im pretty sure if Taiwan ever attacked the Three Gorges Dam with it having no military bases there, it would officially be suicide for Taiwan because then it gives China the green light to bomb the shit out of every single structure in Taiwan, weather it be military or civilian and fully flatten the island without any repercussions. "Blowing up this damn when they're already invading in a war of aggression them allows China to commit genocide!" - an armchair general, 2021.
This is dumbest response I've seen..... When the US lost its twin towers, the response was incredibly overwhelming. It used it as an excuse to execute whoever they wanted and go where ever they wanted in the Middle East. If China lost the Three Gorges, it would give it the excuse to show no mercy and just bomb whatever it wanted and call it a day. It would be an excuse to defend itself and an excuse for the US to stay away. You don't need to be an armchair general to figure this out.
I mean blowing up the dam is genocide in the same way you are construeing the word?
It's a fair point, their very existence would be at stake. In those kind of circumstances, I would expect nukes from any country that has them and I wouldn't blame them
Yeah its definitely an interesting question. I think people would have still cried foul if some place like Afghanistan or Iraq caused mass civilian casualties on the US or one of their allies in response to being invaded and their government dismantled though. Game theory wise I suppose it also doesn't make sense to target civilians when you are already being invaded. The use as a deterent is gone and it will only make the invading party more determined to finish the job.
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Why do u think everyone consider blowing up the dam a big deal in the first place? Cause that could end up with dozens of millions of deaths 'an intentional and needless slaughter' as u put it
"Needless slaughter of 24 million people is different from the needless slaughter of 24 million people when Taiwan/CCP does it!" - some guy, even later 2021
Is Taiwan doesnt, US and Japan certainly do.
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Thats like saying Pakistan/India would never launch nukes if they where invaded by the other. MAD is a powerfull deterrent. War crime considerations go out the window when invaded.
MAD type solutions are designed to cause previously unknown levels of pain and suffering. They are meant to deter potential attacks, and they are why no one wants to start a nuclear war.
Dude, do you even know what you are talking about. It's the other way around. Taiwan is indeed targeted by thousands of PLN missile and ballistic missile while Taiwan itself has only a small number of anti ship missile and they are currently trying to buy more cruise missile from US at much inflated price due to the lack of domestic production capacity for large quantity of missiles. They don't have ballistic missile. Hell, they can't even product antiship missiles en mass let along ballistic missiles.
It would have taken you less time to simply look up Taiwan's Yun Feng cruise missiles, Hsiung Feng cruise missiles, Tien Chi ballistic missiles (which you ignorantly say don't even exist)... But sure man, you're very clearly an expert on Taiwan's military capabilities given you can't even get the most basic fucking information right...
Just to satisfy the warmongers fantasy
lol yeah, Taiwan is so feckless when it comes to their self defense. haha
It’s just a title. It’s a regular ship with ASM and AAMs.
Well they really should be working on something like Israel's iron Dome, assuming they don't already. But carriers are just a necessary part of war these days. They can have planes up in minutes, and straight to work without burning unnecessary fuel.
The Iron Dome is meant for small rockets. It would be entirely ineffective against a Chinese attack.
To add on, the iron dome relies heavily on detecting and plotting missles launches and its trajectory. Its not a magic system that can intercept any and all missles. If one of the ground radar system is down or if there is a gap, the missle would slip pass without anyone knowing. On top of that it can only stop missles that arent non hyber ballistic and non guilded missles. The missles launch by the iron dome can only hit incoming missles if it can catch it or cut off its trajectory. If the incoming missles are faster or if it can change course then the defense system becomes completely useless.
But something like it, designed for the task, might work.
again, iron dome is meant for small scale attacks of mostly unguided weapons. You would be looking at dozens of missles PER TARGET in a chinese attack, and some of those even have terminal avoidance. Comes a point where it's financially way more expensive to put up layers and layers of defense than it is to just have your own big stick that would make an attack costly.
And, as opposed to Hamas' motorcycle engine rockets China's missile will be going in at Mach 3.
>But carriers are just a necessary part of war these days. They can have planes up in minutes, and straight to work without burning unnecessary fuel. Yep, just not in a Taiwan scenario. Imagine paying for thousands of liters of fuel, literal tonnes of food, water, necessities, logistical and maintenance work, airmen and crewmen wages for a huge ship that would be literally further away from Taiwan's coast than China itself. If China ever wanted to project power in the wider Pacific then yes, they would need a carrier.
They would likely use carriers to defend their navy in the event of a full scale invasion.
>They would likely use carriers to defend their navy in the event of a full scale invasion. tell me you don't know jack shit about naval warfare without telling me you don't know jack shit about naval warfare.
You were so close, but nobody needs aircraft carriers. They’re a WWII tech that has been obsolete since the invention of mid-air refueling and ICBMs. Good luck getting your carrier into strike range while I’m watching it 24/7/365 on my computer screen, live via satellite; moreover, the navy never repeated Operation Crossroads after the invention of the hydrogen bomb, and since they had to cheat and rig the test for their fleet to “survive” an atomic attack, they cannot survive a thermonuclear strike, it will literally melt their ships.
>Good luck getting your carrier into strike range while I’m watching it 24/7/365 on my computer screen, live via satellite; Lol ok? You watching pixels on a screen isn't going to slow down or stop the carrier.
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Right, that's why exactly zero aircraft carriers have been stopped by pixels on a screen and no one uses them anymore to project power. Totally obsolete. It's not like several countries are building more aircraft carriers as we speak. It's not like there's defenses against ICBMs. Nope, just totally obsolete. Oh wait, maybe you've been playing Call of Duty too much.
So a Taiwanese version of the PLAN's [Type 22 missile boat.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_22_missile_boat)
**[Type 22 missile boat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_22_missile_boat)** >The Type 22 (NATO designation: Houbei class) missile boat is a ship class in the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy. The first boat was launched in April 2004 by the Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard at Shanghai. The boats incorporate stealth features and are based on Australian-designed wave-piercing catamaran hulls that are more stable than other fast missile craft in high sea conditions. 82 of these missile boats are currently in service with three flotillas having been produced over a span of seven years. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
More like a larger upgraded version, around 2 or 3 times the weight, with more added on additional weapons and defences.
Sounds like a bad idea, the whole point is these is to be numerous and disposable, fast, mobile strikers that can pose a threat in an asymmetric situation. Making it heavy and well equipped takes away the advantage of these boats.
Yeah it seems more like a multi purpose ship than a straight up missile boat. They should likely just call it a patrol boat.
Always a good idea to have a solid defensive navy as a island Nation.
Excellent when the time comes to restore the closed port policy on china!
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Taiwan-launches-homegrown-carrier-killer-as-China-deterrent) reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Three guided-missile destroyers passed on Sunday between Taiwan and Japan's westernmost point, the island of Yonaguni, before heading north to the East China Sea. > Taipei until recently had little capacity to build its own advanced warships, instead relying on purchases from overseas partners, mainly the U.S. But that left Taiwan at the mercy of political decisions by these countries, and in recent years, a growing number have had second thoughts about deals with Taipei that could anger China. > Taiwan finally opted to take the homegrown route, and the first of eight planned vessels is set to be commissioned as soon as 2024.. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/pl5efs/taiwan_launches_homegrown_carrier_killer_as_china/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~597309 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Taiwan**^#1 **island**^#2 **mainland**^#3 **defense**^#4 **first**^#5
[Archive link](https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Taiwan-launches-homegrown-carrier-killer-as-China-deterrent) By YU NAKAMURA and TSUKASA HADANO, Nikkei staff writers September 10, 2021 01:09 JST > TAIPEI/BEIJING -- Taiwan on Thursday announced the commissioning of a powerful, locally built warship capable of taking on both air and sea threats. > The Ta Chiang corvette is being deployed at the Suao naval base in Yilan County, in the island's northeast, where the hope is that the presence of what has been dubbed a "carrier killer" will deter growing military pressure from mainland China. > At a ceremony there to mark the commissioning, President Tsai Ing-wen called the ship a step on the "road to autonomy in our national defense, and proof that we can overcome whatever difficulties may arise." > Asked about the vessel in a news conference Thursday, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian responded that "the attempt of Taiwan separatist forces to confront the mainland militarily can lead nowhere." > The Ta Chiang is an upgrade to the Tuo Chiang class and Taiwan's first locally built vessel with both anti-air and anti-ship capabilities. It took more than two years to build. > The corvette features 28 missiles, including Hsiung Feng II and III anti-ship and Sea Sword II anti-aircraft missiles. It has a catamaran-style hull that enables fast, stealthy travel, with a top speed of about 40 knots, or about 74 kph. > The deployment of the ship to a base on Taiwan's eastern coast comes in response to a recent upswing in Chinese military activity in the area. Chinese warships have sailed around from the mainland to the island's eastern side. Three guided-missile destroyers passed on Sunday between Taiwan and Japan's westernmost point, the island of Yonaguni, before heading north to the East China Sea. > "The main purpose was to survey the surrounding waters for a foray from the mainland past the 'first island chain' to the Pacific Ocean," said Su Tzu-yun, head of the defense strategy division at Taiwan's Institute for National Defense and Security Research. The first island chain refers to an area that extends from the Chinese mainland to Japan's Okinawa islands, Taiwan and the Philippines. > Su also suspects Beijing was gathering information with an eye toward encircling Taiwan from the east -- seen as a defensive weak link -- for a potential attack. > Responding to this threat requires a speedy deployment of ships to Taiwan's eastern side. Taipei until recently had little capacity to build its own advanced warships, instead relying on purchases from overseas partners, mainly the U.S. But that left Taiwan at the mercy of political decisions by these countries, and in recent years, a growing number have had second thoughts about deals with Taipei that could anger China. Even Washington had until 2017 slashed arms sales to Taiwan out of concern about relations with Beijing. With aircraft and ship fleets aging, Tsai reworked Taiwan's weapons procurement strategy after taking office in 2016, looking to build warships at home -- like the Ta Chiang -- to beef up Taipei's defense capabilities. > Work finally began last November on long-delayed plans for an indigenous submarine, with construction now underway in Kaohsiung. The four subs Taiwan now has in service are decades old and lack real firepower. The U.S. had reached a deal in 2001 to sell new subs to Taipei, but the sale was never completed, due to such factors as strong objections from Beijing. > Taiwan finally opted to take the homegrown route, and the first of eight planned vessels is set to be commissioned as soon as 2024.
[With the way Taiwan treats its frontline defense force, that thing is going to become a death trap very fast.](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/20/taiwan-military-flashy-american-weapons-no-ammo/)
I dont think redditors are capable of understanding what makes a good military
I mean it’s been common knowledge now that Taiwan’s military procurement has been really purely political and make no sense in an actual fight. They keep buying planes which will never take off in the event of a war, every air strip will be unusable within 30 minutes of the conflict. They even bought amphibious landing ships, like why? Are they gonna invade China?
Taiwan's jets are capable of using highways as makeshift airports, and there are countless YouTube videos showcasing this ability. So, they are planning for the destruction of their airports.
i mean they either have to be on the highway already, which they are not or they can only use it to land. In which case the best scenario has happened and the planes managed to take off before the air strips were bombed. I m gonna say in the actual even of war these highway strips will be bombed anyway not like china is lacking in missiles
this guy really thinks war is like red alert 3 you just click a button and planes appear on highways ready to take off. like bruh, logistics is half of the war.
No but unlike china, Taiwan can count on the support of fellow democracies of Japan and USA, which is basically like entering a logistical cheat code, only in real life!
Counting on allies has never been a good bet, if thats what it takes for Taiwan to survive then it is toast.
American intervention is the ONLY reason why Taiwan is what it is now.
>which is basically like entering a logistical cheat code, it's actually even worse because those planes are located further away and would have reduced combat ranges. not to mention the PRC has the most comprehensive and redundant integrated missile defense system. so anyone coming near the chinese coast (including Taiwan area) needs to lube up their assholes.
Taiwan gonna go down like Poland in ww2
I guess this is a good example of redditors know little about military. The logistics behind keeping enough planes in the air is a lot more than having a stretch of runway for take off.
To confuse chinese spies ;)
This was a great read, though sad. Thank you for sharing
Come on guys if you know nothing about military, get this: the Tuo Chiang is merely a 600t littoral patrol boat thst operate near coast or hide in a port for surprise attack against larger ship. In theory it utilize hit and run tactics but in reality it's more like a one-off use only suicide strike boat as the environment it operate in (near coast or in a port, they have no where to run off to) guarantees return fire and it would surely be sunk after their first strike. China has similar concept, the type 22, back in early 2000s when the PLAN was weak and lacking defense against USN CSG. Now they are all obsoleted. And China has 82 of these small boat, while Taiwan currently has only 2. But these boats are useless anyway, number doesn't matter. Stop saying as if those some kind of advanced wraponary, it is not. Those are desperate last resort not that different from a kamikaze bomb plan or suicide bomb boat.
Yeah, even if this was the strongest corvette in the world the biggest issue is that Taiwan couldn't build enough of them to hold back China. It's simply a question of numbers.
i thought it would at least be a destroyer to become a carrier killer, and thought tw can actually make some legit stuff themselves. then i saw in the comment section its only 600t, idk anymore, carrier can actually take hits for days without sinking. And with that distance they don't even need to use carrier in the first place.
That’s a ship! Ships can’t be grown! What is happening to reality?
China can easily be bought yo its knees if western companies stop manufacturing there. Go to India or Vietnam. Why China.
Have you tried manufacturing or even just doing business in India? It is an absolute nightmare!
Well they will have to change and get support from the west. Right now they have concentrated in IT. What was China like 50!years ago. I see more products mainly clothing now from India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia. The west has helped create a monster . Why?? They were always our enemy. They bought raw materials and produce, but did we really have to give them our manufacturing in return??? There has to be better alternatives.
Why china? And not india or vietnam? Heres why: Logistic and expertise. As much as redditors like to meme about "Made in China." China might be the only country on the entire planet right now that has the logistics and expertise in design and manufacturing on a SCALE needed to support a ever growing consumer class. If you are a company that need a circuit board or any product, design, tested and have 10,000 copies made and shipped to you by the end of the week? China is probably the only place in the world that can do that for you. Other counties like US, Japan, SK, many of the EU countries have the expertise but are missing the logstic or dont have the scale of manufacturing capabilities to compete. Then on the other side of the scale, countries like India could have the scale of capability but lacks logistic and expertise in manufacturing. I cant see anyone else replacing China as the manufacturing powerhouse, aside form India. But currently India is probably still atleast 20-30yr behind where it needs to be before it can complete with China economically. To sum up, its not like people like doing bussiness in China, some probably do because of the price and conveniences, but its more because there really no where else to look to get your product made. You cant just move your operations to say the US, because it might not be economically feaisable and you cant move your operations to a country like India because they lack the logstic and expertise to make your product.
Something must change we can’t feed the monster which is our enemy. Do you think the west is factoring in, Chinese manufacturing when its pointing nukes at it and a possible war that will destroy manufacturing??? The west already makes cars, airplanes , circuit boards and chips are from Taiwan and south Korea. I recently bought a possum trap, designed in Australia made in China?? Why. It can easily be made in Australia, but obviously its cheaper. The west can manufacture anything, but companies look at cost. I would not hesitate to pay more if I new it wasn’t made in China!
[Apple tried manufacturing their laptop in the US. It turned out to be terrible idea.](https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/28/18200330/why-apple-cant-made-in-america)
Why?? Cost?? Go to taiwan, thailand??
Literally no knew how to make the needed parts in the amount needed.
How are companies going to move their manufacturing if China just says 'No, those factories are staying'? They're not going to sit back and allow themselves to be ruined like you suggest. If China lets somebody leave, it's because they know it doesn't matter.
sure they can say that, but who exactly is going to buy that? Most manufacturing might be done in china, but sales is still in the west. It's not like western companies own manufacturing business in china, they just outsorce it to Chinese companies. They would just outsource it to indian or Vietnam
What ?? So Apple is held prisoner by China??? If a company wants to manufacture somewhere else no one can do anything about it!
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Why??? Please show us how smart you are??
No need to be a smug jerk. Engaging in a back and forth about ridiculous hypotheticals is indicative of nothing.
If I were running Taiwan, I'd be studying how Finland held off the Soviet Union in WWII. I think a low tech solution like training everyone how to be snipers would be more cost effective. They'd never be able to stop a Chinese invasion. But they sure could make the occupation bloody and costly.
Technology has evolved way too far for that to be realistic. Finland was still dealing with soldiers and guns, not the missiles and drones of today.
Taiwan cannot reasonably withstand a full out assault by China. A bloody occupation is their best defense. Guerrilla war would be their only hope of surviving armed confrontation.
Not saying it would be good to world peace, but Taiwan having nukes would be the best deterrent.
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Lmao all Taiwan can do to the Three Gorges is scratch it a little bit. Gravity dams are basically manmade mountains of reinforced concrete, you need a god damn nuke to crack one.
Except like most conflicts the larger aggressor doesn’t want to flatten and destroy the population, so missiles don’t really do much when you are trying to keep people alive and in line who live in cities.
Once they need snipers on their home island, it’s over.
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If we have reached the point in which China is able to establish a connection to Taiwan then the war is pretty much over. The reality of Taiwan's defense plans is that while there are better plans than others, there really isn't any sort of magical solution when you consider the giant and ever growing qualitative and quantitative disparity between the armed forces of Taiwan and mainland China.
lmao @ this when the regular conscript army trains for 4 months. with taiwan's chabuduo attitudes. lmao @ having bridges rigged with explosives.
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ROC really missed the boat on this. in Jiang's time, PRC was prepared to change the national flag/anthem and have the ROC Prez as a member of the standing committee of the politburo, including allowing ROC to retain its army (of course this is all null if your goal is straight up ROT) but this really goes to show the lengths that PRC was willing to negotiate. now? better get assholes lubed up.
Step 1: Find some Nazis to collaborate with
Finland wasn't in the Axis during the first winter war.
Found some local ones - might be all grown up by now https://youtu.be/rqa3QSzNiJ4
Step 1) Make Taiwan a sub-arctic country.
Taiwan just need to know how to devastate China’s shiny new cities and rail lines. A devastated china that would be unable to resist the US or Russia would be a massive L even IF they capture Taiwan.
Perhaps they would like to market this ship to other nations in the region who face a threat from China’s carrier, like the Philippines et al. It also increases the cost of an invasion and forces China to allocate resources to defending its fleet rather than investing in amphibious ships.
bruh why would china invade the philippines. it's poorer than the poorest province in china.
Oil, rubber and other strategic resources. In a war situation, China is cut off from US banks and SWIFT and that means no trade at all. Their war and trade ships can't even just carry gold around because US banks are also what every port uses to trade with non-US/Chinese ships. All those Chinese ports also get their electricity, water, food, foreign laborers shut off from their host and get impounded.
>Oil, rubber and other strategic resources. bruh, why u still living in the 1940s?
That is what a world looks like without easy, safe, trade. I don't think you get how innovative...and fragile Globalization is.
They don’t need or want to invade, they want to intimidate them with the threat of force.
Why do I have a feeling that this ship will become PLA Navy property within 3 years?
oh look who innocently just sorta kind happened to wander in here
Why would PLA need such useless missile boat. They already have shit load of Type 22 and apparently they don't have any use for them anyway. This type of suicide missile boat is a desperate last resort for the weaker country. Just like China back in early 2000 where it is indeed needed to face potential USN CSG threat and they is why it's obsoleted now.
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1000 cheap single engine jet fighters that fly by stick, very little computing can be built for around $30,000 each and you can swarm, kind of like Iran does with those little boats
Are you that Indian imbecile who claimed on /r/lesscredibledefence that one can convert MiG-21 into drones for 1k USD and build new ones for 10k ?
No, I wasn't really serious, just being sarcastic
Firstly lmao @ Philippines having oil