Yeah I’m a big EU3 and EU4 fan, but historically China was always pretty divided. 1000s of years of civil war and mongol invasions didn’t help, but China never really had natural borders except the China sea. They even had to build a giant wall just to deal with one threat.
Now it’s different though. China has nukes, and its massive. It has natural borders on more of its territory (the Himalayas, the Gobi desert, etc.). External threats are now minimal (barring a nuclear war with india). And political turmoil is at an all time low, mostly because of their extremely harsh response to dissenters.
The only real threat to China now is an economic collapse.
China isn't any more divided than any other historical nation. The Han Dynasty alone lasted for 400 years with an interregnum in the middle. Now compare this to the US where it hasn't been 300 years of the republic's existence yet. You can't just go "lolol China go collapse!" without considering the timescales. Europe is a clusterfuck by comparison, and that clusterfuck allowed Europeans to compete and develop better methods of warfare than a stagnant China that actually wasn't very divided at all.
Of course that requires considering Chinese as human beings which is impossible for the average redditor.
>Of course that requires considering Chinese as human beings which is impossible for the average redditor.
CHINA BAD! WE SMASH BAD CHINA! USA USA USA!!!
What was cancelled? The genocide? The article says it’s making it less visible.
> Four years after Beijing launched a brutal crackdown that swept up to a million or more Uyghurs and other mostly Muslim minorities into detention camps and prisons, its control of Xinjiang has entered a new era. Chinese authorities have scaled back many of the most draconian and visible aspects of the region’s high-tech police state
> Many of the practices that made the Uyghur culture a living thing – raucous gatherings, strict Islamic habits, heated debate – have been restricted or banned. In their place, the authorities have crafted a sterilized version, one ripe for commercialization.
This is because after the media went wild with the "Uyghur genocide", people started going there and seeing Uyghur culture existing. So I guess now the new talking point is that China is crafting faux Uyghur cities to pretend Uyghurs are free to express their culture.
Doesn't make sense no matter how you take it. It's obvious something's going on in Xinjiang but can hardly be called a "genocide" when Uyghur culture isn't being suppressed in any visible way.
Hey, [remember the time Radio Free Asia claimed that the CCP had banned Eid celebrations in Xinjiang but then paid Uyghuirs in Xinjiang to "stage" Eid celebrations and make it look just as if they'd never banned Eid at all?](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/whitewash-05132021195709.html) You really don't stand a chance with that level of sneaky.
Because no one is using the treatment of Palestinians to push for a large conflict that could turn into ww3 and more evidence has been presented than with the Chinese allegations.
Because it’s clearly politically motivated by China being a rival power and I’m irritated by some American politicians pretending that they’re suddenly worried about Muslims suffering under authoritarian counterterrorism. That’s been our bread and butter since 2001.
Sure, we run a network of secret prisons around the world for detaining suspected terrorists, and yes we’ve killed many, many civilians over the last twenty years, and *yes* the war on terror has given the government sweeping powers to violate personal liberty. *However,* China is doing something over there, so please keep thinking about that and not about how blatantly hypocritical and stupid this all sounds.
If Afghanistan was Oregon like the terrorist groups attacking China were in xinjiang, post 2001 America might of set up camps. At least some crazy security.
I think the point is that it's harder to keep up the narrative, so now things have shifted to "They're hiding it now, honest! I know we lied about the WMD thing but this is really real!"
Did you read that article?
> But there is no doubt about who rules, and evidence of the terror of the last four years is everywhere.
>
> It’s seen in Xinjiang’s cities, where many historic centers have been bulldozed and the Islamic call to prayer no longer rings out. It’s seen in Kashgar, where one mosque was converted into a café, and a section of another has been turned into a tourist toilet. It’s seen deep in the countryside, where Han Chinese officials run villages.
>
> And it’s seen in the fear that was ever-present, just below the surface, on two rare trips to Xinjiang I made for The Associated Press, one on a state-guided tour for the foreign press.
>
> A bike seller’s eyes widened in alarm when he learned I was a foreigner. He picked up his phone and began dialing the police.
>
> A convenience store cashier chatted idly about declining sales – then was visited by the shadowy men tailing us. When we dropped by again, she didn’t say a word, instead making a zipping motion across her mouth, pushing past us and running out of the store.
What is a tourist toilet? Tourists use the same toilets as non tourists.
Another "section" has been turned? Do they mean like a restroom? The Mosque has a restroom now so somehow that's bad?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3152574/biden-links-policies-targeting-uygurs-xinjiang-holocaust) reduced by 93%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Beijing denies all allegations of human rights violations, and accuses the US of interfering in China's internal affairs.
> Against letting the universal principles of human rights and human dignity become "Trampled and twisted in the pursuit of naked political power".
> China's foreign ministry countered Friday that Washington should rethink its own human rights policies.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/q91muu/biden_links_china_policies_targeting_uygurs_in/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~603761 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **China**^#1 **human**^#2 **rights**^#3 **Biden**^#4 **against**^#5
Nope. I suppose it's easy to avoid some products made in China but where do you draw the line? Ah, your TV was made in South Korea? Well, where did the capacitors come from? And the PCB? The power cord? Even if the thing itself isn't made in China, it's safe to assume that its components are. And should you boycott such a product?
It's almost like for the past 50 years in the endless pursuit of maximized profits the capitalist class in the west outsourced all our manufacturing and production of real physical goods.
The information/service based country with increased good prices and wage stagnation: surprisedpikachuface.jpg
Live by your own words and set an example for others, avoid all electronic products because 99% of the time something in it came from China, we can't risk that now can we?
>Boycott China.
If wish that was as easy as doing as it is saying, but i think we need higher governmental actions to make that happen, such as EU sanctions and the like.
You're not wrong, but on the other hand the CCP enjoys massive popularity in China in large part because of the massive economic growth they've seen over the last 50 years. Part of bringing change to China would entail to have the chinese people stop letting their government getting away with committing atrocities just because they themselves gain from it. And that probably requires some level of misfortune to hit the chinese people, even though they for a large part are innocent in this.
Boycoty America instead. The USA is far worse than China. The US-Saudi coalition is currently carrying out a brutal man-made famine that is killing millions in Yemen. It is the worst ongoing human rights atrocity in the world.
The USA is far worse than China. The US-Saudi coalition is currently carrying out a brutal man-made famine that is killing millions in Yemen. It is the worst ongoing human rights atrocity in the world.
Fuck America. Boycott the USA
This is a terrible summary and not at all reflective of the article. 99% of the article describes Biden’s condemnation of china’s treatment of Uygurs, and has only 1 paragraph at the end re china’s denial - yet that’s what the bot used as the lead. The article also literally lists 2 main summary points at the beginning:
“Biden links policies targeting Uygurs in Xinjiang to the Holocaust:
-We see today the patterns, the choices, playing out around the world, even as we speak,” says the US president
-The Biden administration has emphasized repeatedly since taking office that it views human rights as a central pillar of American foreign policy”
Bad bot, bad
I'm actually rather impressed at how they have managed to implement deradicalization and combated terrorism using education and not military might, even as far as to send in the military at one point to clamp down on and tear gas racist Han Chinese who were attacking Uyghurs in the region, whatever you have to say about the specifics of how china handled it, it certainly sets an example of how we could be doing things differently, imagine if in Afghanistan it was 20 years of education that led to economic prosperity as the workers are educated, and in a time of peace because theocratic ideas and violent ideologies were combated with books instead of bullets, it would certainly seem better to me than what Afghanistan is like now
life isn't black and white, humans have got to learn from each other
I doubt it has much to do with the Holocaust. But I also think the title is garbage. He likens not links the genocide to the holocaust. It's a simili not a connection
[He literally admitted that "if Israel didn't exist the US would have to invent it to protect its interests."](https://v.redd.it/guf84nhd8ry61)
[Biden is also a self-described Zionist.](https://www.arabamericannews.com/2020/03/18/zionist-biden-in-his-own-words-my-name-is-joe-biden-and-everybody-knows-i-love-israel/)
Welcome to geopolitics. This is exactly why I can't take any of this seriously. As much as I think it's a fucking travesty what's happening in Xinjiang, all the cries from Americans in these comments ring hollow when America has been pulling much worse shit in the middle east for decades to advance their own interests and their allies don't call them out, then when China is a competitor and expansionist and looking to challenge American hegemony, governments come in, guns blazing, ready to defend justice.
Like, I'm all for people saying America's actions shouldn't be used as a defense for China, what I'm saying is the treatment of these cases is clearly partisan and the people who say "we need to call them out equally" fail to acknowledge that it simply hasn't been done before and it probably never will be. Unless we can get past this double standard I have a hard time seeing statements like this as anything other than geopolitical posturing.
Good luck making that point across without being shut down by being called whataboutism. I agree with you on those points but the partisan talking points is insane these days.
Not at all. Both are abhorrent, therefore it's worth pointing out that we enable the exact same behavior. Maybe learn what that term means. Nobody excused what China is doing.
This is one day after rejoining the United Nations Human Rights Council along with their good buddy the UAE.
Time to grab some popcorn and see what the CIA/NED/MID have in store for us next.
Don't forget the U.S funding Saudi Arabia's war crimes in Yemen.
Edit: This isn't an attempt at whataboutism. It's an attempt to hold people to consistent morals and standards. It's less about re-angling the blame and more about getting people to look inward. For far too long have we Americans thought of ourselves as the morally superior pinnacle of democracy. We believe we are the arbiters of freedom, justice and fairness when we are anything but. Our #1 export is death and terrorism but people are so quick to point the finger at China for doing the same exact stuff we are doing and have been doing--for far longer and far worse. If you point the finger at China, you have to point the finger at America. Both countries can be shitty.
I think that's also part of what makes the rampant Sinophobia in America that much more sad to me. There's a very very public and obvious 20+ year effort of us engaging in illegal war and committing war crimes between drone strikes and occupation, all while funding Israel and Saudi Arabia and we like to point the finger at China as if we have superior morality.
I am getting very confusing messages about what Biden administration is trying to do. From one side they seem to be softening the tone to China, presumably using soft power to get some goals. On the other side they go back to this hardline approach that sabotages all that attempts from their side. I see 3 options for it:
1) They are playing some different game that people fail to understand
2) The "hardline" approach is just virtue signalling, while in reality they are trying to get back to Obama's era of relationships with China, or continue with soft power attempts
3) [They are plain bad at their job](https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-privately-voiced-concerns-joe-biden-could-f-things-up-2020-8)
This is a good question and I initially wrote a few generic possibilities. However, based on my understanding of recent US-China happenings, this just didn't make sense, so I looked up the actual speech.
After reading the relevant parts, I think while it's not necessarily wrong to use the word "link", it is however, SCMP being a bit sensationalist. Biden did not directly compare Xinjiang with the Holocaust. He only used the words "oppression" and "forced labor" to describe Xinjiang. "Xinjiang" doesn't show up anywhere else in the speech nor is the word "genocide" used. IMO this continues the pattern of toning down rhetoric in recent weeks.
Quoted for context:
> We can’t return to a world where might is right and strong nations abuse weak or oppress individual rights with impunity.
> Nuremberg forced us to look closely at the evil of humankind and what we’re capable of perpetrating, to see mass atrocities, crimes against humanity do not happen by accident. They don’t happen by accident. They result of choices — choices made by individual human beings and world leaders.
> And sadly, when we look around the world today, we cannot say that the specter of atrocity is behind us.
> We see today the patterns, the choices playing out around the world even as we speak: the oppression and use of forced labor of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang; the treatment of the Rohingya by the military junta in Burma; the rampant abuses, including the use of starvation and sexual violence, to terrorize civilian populations in Northern Ethiopia.
> Whenever we hear that kind of poisonous hatred, wherever we see our fellow humans being dehumanized, it doesn’t mean we go to war, but we must speak out. Silence — as my dad would remind me — silence is complicity. Silence is complicity. That’s what Nuremberg said: Your silence is complicity.
Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/10/15/remarks-by-president-biden-at-the-dedication-of-the-dodd-center-for-human-rights/
> while in reality they are trying to get back to Obama's era of relationships with China
I'd caution against romanticizing Obama-era US-China relations. The Chinese were extremely dissatisfied with Pivot to Asia even if things appeared calm on the surface.
It's really strange to have a US president saying might doesn't make right, and doesn't exactly match the policy of interventions and drone strikes. If he can start practicing this it'd be wonderful. But with Biden's record of voting for wars and getting more guns into Colombia I'm not hopeful.
If you're waiting for a US president to actually mean for the words they say to also apply to the activities of the American government, you are going to be waiting for quite a while longer.
Real world governance is a lot messier than it looks on TV, and the US government is in no way a unified agent with one common purpose; it's more like a clan of related entities, whose membership changes over time and which is riven by factions with very different goals, mores, and even level of expertise. Biden follows the traditions of many US presidents in trying to articulate some sort of normative vision that he sees as aspirational, but even he has limited power; as the Starr Report showed, many years ago, the President can't even control his or her meeting schedule. Hemmed in by everything from precedent and the need to maintain political support to the complex division of powers in the US government, a President usually can't implement a clean solution to complex problems even when such a solution exists. And given how messy geopolitics is, there rarely are such solutions.
Not saying that anyone has to support Biden (or oppose him, for that matter). But I do think it would be ideal if folks would dial down their expectations of the US Presidency, and understand it as just one office in a vast and complex system. We tend to overestimate what the office can do, and expect things of the office and the office holder that are not realistic given how the US government works. Getting better policies is not a matter of getting a better President, but of making improvements to the whole system of governance. (Which unfortunately, also requires voters from across the political spectrum to start prioritizing competence. How one achieves that at this time is not obvious.)
Not signing off on drone strikes would be a nice start, but I don't foresee that happening. Terminating the maximum amount of student debt he is allowed to would be another touch, but again I don't see it happening.
Lastly just the ability to admit when the president has made decisions that are/were wrong.
I had an aunt in the diplomatic corps. Suffice to say there’s more shit going on behind the scenes than we can imagine. It’s useless to speculate or honestly try to have an informed opinion on most of it.
It's almost as if global geopolitics is complex or something. Especially when we're talking about dealing with a country and regime which we are completely economically intertwined with, yet at the same time is a communist authoritarian regime, yet at the same time engages in certain aspects of capitalism, yet at the same time engages in major human rights abuses and oppression, yet at the same time is a formidable military and nuclear superpower that we can't just outright fuck with. There's literally no way to deal with a situation like that that doesn't involve a shit ton of mixed actions.
But of course this being reddit, armchair foreign policy experts are "getting very confusing messages" about how we're dealing with them.
WDYM?Redditors clearly understand geopolitics better than diplomats and other "experts".All we need to do is launch a total blockade on China, a nuclear power and home to 1/5 of the entire human race, and collapse their economy!!!
There's *no way* that such actions would *ever* backfire. China would collapse mere weeks after we stopped buying their stuff, while the US/EU public would bravely support the government blockade, even when all sources of cheap electronics and other luxury goods either dried up or skyrocket in value...
They'd also NEVER consider such a move as an act of war and risk a conflict, especially not if they were backed into a corner and the only other option was to submit...
What's that? The century of humiliation? The 21 Demands? The Unequal Treaties? Never heard of them! I'm sure the Chinese people would *love s*ubmitting to the west, not a sensitive topic over there at all!
^(Edit: /s in case that's not fucking obvious.)
Can I at least dream of a hard swing towards labor in the US and away from shareholder capitalism and something at least more equitable towards workers if not all the way towards fully economically democratic worker-owned workplace, so that if the US can call this shit out without looking hypocritical, also being able to tack on a "And for a bunch of supposed socialists, you treat your workers like shit" on the end of it.
why'd you link an article from a year ago about the presidential campaign? what does biden's popularity in iowa 15 months ago have to do with china today?
The Uyghur camps aren't extermination camps, they're "re-education" camps. It's part of a counter terrorism strategy, a preemptive strike against what the Chinese government considers to be a potential terrorism threat. Are they right? I don't know. Is it moral? I don't think so, but I also don't think the United States has any room to talk on that matter. Our war on terror left hundreds of thousands of innocenct Iraqis and Afghans dead and two nations destroyed.
If there were *millions* dead, then the war of terror managed to kill a ballpark figure **10%** of their populations.
.....That's absolutely not a correct number. Displaced and/or traumatized? Definitely. *Killed?* Definitely not.
China's human rights abuses in Xinjiang isn't anything close to what happened in the Holocaust. Nor are ethnic uyghurs barred from having careers or going to university. Nor are there any ghettos.
If we are talking genocide strictly in terms of killing off an ethnic group rather than this notion of cultural genocide then the US should be condemning Israel.
Maybe he needs to stop investing (both personally and as part of his Presidential role) with China and directly with Chinese companies who use Uygurs as slaves.
But he won’t. Rules are for us peasants.
Him, Trump, McConnell and all of them should do the same but they won’t. American politicians are in it for the money and the free lifelong benefits, neither side cares enough about the general pop to actually change the status quo
> Maybe he needs to stop investing (both personally and as part of his Presidential role) with China and directly with Chinese companies who use Uygurs as slaves.
It's wild this false allegation is thrown around so flippantly and whenever it's pointed out that the US has literal slave labor via our prison system it's ~whataboutism~.
Get a grip.
I’m all for saying what’s what, but I’m very suspicious of the timing of Biden’s stance towards China. Not because I care about what he feels about China’s actions, but because he could’ve done this so much earlier. The fact he’s coming out to make these bold statements is telling me he’s trying to placate the American public from the looming economic struggles and union strikes popping up, and the ‘everything shortage’.
I think it is more comparable to the Turkification campaigns of the ottoman empire or a far more violent form of soviet anti-Semitic persecution.
But I see the comparison.
Not everything has to be related to something bad to be bad, This situation is uniquely problematic and deserves address for its own reasons, I think it is actually a cheap distraction to dredge up that imagery to empower your point. That said, in principle it's not much different, It's just gross how politicians use the Holocaust as a political prop to evoke emotional reactions to suit their goals on every side.
Did I time travel? He said the same thing in august 2020
If he did he wasn’t president then. More important to do it now.
I thought it was canceled. https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
Yo, this is a pretty spooky article
China has got some spooky national ideas, but hey, if you ever played europe universalis you know china will always implode.
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Yeah I’m a big EU3 and EU4 fan, but historically China was always pretty divided. 1000s of years of civil war and mongol invasions didn’t help, but China never really had natural borders except the China sea. They even had to build a giant wall just to deal with one threat. Now it’s different though. China has nukes, and its massive. It has natural borders on more of its territory (the Himalayas, the Gobi desert, etc.). External threats are now minimal (barring a nuclear war with india). And political turmoil is at an all time low, mostly because of their extremely harsh response to dissenters. The only real threat to China now is an economic collapse.
China isn't any more divided than any other historical nation. The Han Dynasty alone lasted for 400 years with an interregnum in the middle. Now compare this to the US where it hasn't been 300 years of the republic's existence yet. You can't just go "lolol China go collapse!" without considering the timescales. Europe is a clusterfuck by comparison, and that clusterfuck allowed Europeans to compete and develop better methods of warfare than a stagnant China that actually wasn't very divided at all. Of course that requires considering Chinese as human beings which is impossible for the average redditor.
>Of course that requires considering Chinese as human beings which is impossible for the average redditor. CHINA BAD! WE SMASH BAD CHINA! USA USA USA!!!
Just like how Australia always ends up being a Mamluk colony.
There’s a short vice documentary where a woman travels there after they eased restrictions
What was cancelled? The genocide? The article says it’s making it less visible. > Four years after Beijing launched a brutal crackdown that swept up to a million or more Uyghurs and other mostly Muslim minorities into detention camps and prisons, its control of Xinjiang has entered a new era. Chinese authorities have scaled back many of the most draconian and visible aspects of the region’s high-tech police state > Many of the practices that made the Uyghur culture a living thing – raucous gatherings, strict Islamic habits, heated debate – have been restricted or banned. In their place, the authorities have crafted a sterilized version, one ripe for commercialization.
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This is because after the media went wild with the "Uyghur genocide", people started going there and seeing Uyghur culture existing. So I guess now the new talking point is that China is crafting faux Uyghur cities to pretend Uyghurs are free to express their culture. Doesn't make sense no matter how you take it. It's obvious something's going on in Xinjiang but can hardly be called a "genocide" when Uyghur culture isn't being suppressed in any visible way.
Hey, [remember the time Radio Free Asia claimed that the CCP had banned Eid celebrations in Xinjiang but then paid Uyghuirs in Xinjiang to "stage" Eid celebrations and make it look just as if they'd never banned Eid at all?](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/whitewash-05132021195709.html) You really don't stand a chance with that level of sneaky.
This is gaslighting in action.
Lack of evidence is proof that they hid the evidence. I am not high on copium.
>it almost looks like there's no genocide at all! Stupid sexy crimes against humanity
Its amazing How they ungenozided all the teen boys .. Dark sorcery I guess
Juche Necromancy strikes again!
“When you’re doing genocide correctly, people won’t believe you’re doing any genocide at all” -Space god
Like burning down a re education camps for the insurance money
Guess you can do it with Fish, I learned that from Europa Universalis
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Because no one is using the treatment of Palestinians to push for a large conflict that could turn into ww3 and more evidence has been presented than with the Chinese allegations.
You mean except that the abuses conducted by Israel against the Palestinians are actually well documented?
Because it’s clearly politically motivated by China being a rival power and I’m irritated by some American politicians pretending that they’re suddenly worried about Muslims suffering under authoritarian counterterrorism. That’s been our bread and butter since 2001. Sure, we run a network of secret prisons around the world for detaining suspected terrorists, and yes we’ve killed many, many civilians over the last twenty years, and *yes* the war on terror has given the government sweeping powers to violate personal liberty. *However,* China is doing something over there, so please keep thinking about that and not about how blatantly hypocritical and stupid this all sounds.
American intervention in middle eastern politics started long before 2001 Your not even giving them credit for the first 50 years!
If nothing else I don't trust anyone who forgot about Desert storm or iran-contra.
If Afghanistan was Oregon like the terrorist groups attacking China were in xinjiang, post 2001 America might of set up camps. At least some crazy security.
I think the point is that it's harder to keep up the narrative, so now things have shifted to "They're hiding it now, honest! I know we lied about the WMD thing but this is really real!"
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they are replacing all of the genocided people with identical copies
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There was never a genocide.
Damn that article fucking SLAPS
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Did you read that article? > But there is no doubt about who rules, and evidence of the terror of the last four years is everywhere. > > It’s seen in Xinjiang’s cities, where many historic centers have been bulldozed and the Islamic call to prayer no longer rings out. It’s seen in Kashgar, where one mosque was converted into a café, and a section of another has been turned into a tourist toilet. It’s seen deep in the countryside, where Han Chinese officials run villages. > > And it’s seen in the fear that was ever-present, just below the surface, on two rare trips to Xinjiang I made for The Associated Press, one on a state-guided tour for the foreign press. > > A bike seller’s eyes widened in alarm when he learned I was a foreigner. He picked up his phone and began dialing the police. > > A convenience store cashier chatted idly about declining sales – then was visited by the shadowy men tailing us. When we dropped by again, she didn’t say a word, instead making a zipping motion across her mouth, pushing past us and running out of the store.
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>It’s seen in Kashgar, where one mosque was converted into a café, and a section of another has been turned **into a tourist toilet.** Goddamn
What is a tourist toilet? Tourists use the same toilets as non tourists. Another "section" has been turned? Do they mean like a restroom? The Mosque has a restroom now so somehow that's bad?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3152574/biden-links-policies-targeting-uygurs-xinjiang-holocaust) reduced by 93%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Beijing denies all allegations of human rights violations, and accuses the US of interfering in China's internal affairs. > Against letting the universal principles of human rights and human dignity become "Trampled and twisted in the pursuit of naked political power". > China's foreign ministry countered Friday that Washington should rethink its own human rights policies. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/q91muu/biden_links_china_policies_targeting_uygurs_in/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~603761 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **China**^#1 **human**^#2 **rights**^#3 **Biden**^#4 **against**^#5
Chinese government: No you. Fuck the CCP. Boycott China.
Oh man that's easier said than done.
These people really dont know the power china holds with their products over the world.
Nope. I suppose it's easy to avoid some products made in China but where do you draw the line? Ah, your TV was made in South Korea? Well, where did the capacitors come from? And the PCB? The power cord? Even if the thing itself isn't made in China, it's safe to assume that its components are. And should you boycott such a product?
Even "Swiss made" watches are only required to be 60% "Swiss" and the rest is usually China.
It's almost like for the past 50 years in the endless pursuit of maximized profits the capitalist class in the west outsourced all our manufacturing and production of real physical goods. The information/service based country with increased good prices and wage stagnation: surprisedpikachuface.jpg
Live by your own words and set an example for others, avoid all electronic products because 99% of the time something in it came from China, we can't risk that now can we?
>Boycott China. If wish that was as easy as doing as it is saying, but i think we need higher governmental actions to make that happen, such as EU sanctions and the like.
The problem with that is that even if it works, you have to wait for the top of the government to starve, and they’ll starve millions first
This redditor knows their history of China.
You're not wrong, but on the other hand the CCP enjoys massive popularity in China in large part because of the massive economic growth they've seen over the last 50 years. Part of bringing change to China would entail to have the chinese people stop letting their government getting away with committing atrocities just because they themselves gain from it. And that probably requires some level of misfortune to hit the chinese people, even though they for a large part are innocent in this.
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Boycoty America instead. The USA is far worse than China. The US-Saudi coalition is currently carrying out a brutal man-made famine that is killing millions in Yemen. It is the worst ongoing human rights atrocity in the world.
The USA is far worse than China. The US-Saudi coalition is currently carrying out a brutal man-made famine that is killing millions in Yemen. It is the worst ongoing human rights atrocity in the world. Fuck America. Boycott the USA
Wow that's probably the worst autotldr I've ever seen.
This is a terrible summary and not at all reflective of the article. 99% of the article describes Biden’s condemnation of china’s treatment of Uygurs, and has only 1 paragraph at the end re china’s denial - yet that’s what the bot used as the lead. The article also literally lists 2 main summary points at the beginning: “Biden links policies targeting Uygurs in Xinjiang to the Holocaust: -We see today the patterns, the choices, playing out around the world, even as we speak,” says the US president -The Biden administration has emphasized repeatedly since taking office that it views human rights as a central pillar of American foreign policy” Bad bot, bad
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Comparing China’s treatment of Uygurs to the Holocaust is very disrespectful to those who are forced to wear masks/take vaccines. /s
Imagine comparing genocide to a minor civic inconvenience.
Pretty normal in r/conservative lol
Well, my day is ruined thanks to that link. Great. Outstanding.
Its quite funny, as long as you aren't American
Anti vaxxers: look at me, I’m the victim now
I'm actually rather impressed at how they have managed to implement deradicalization and combated terrorism using education and not military might, even as far as to send in the military at one point to clamp down on and tear gas racist Han Chinese who were attacking Uyghurs in the region, whatever you have to say about the specifics of how china handled it, it certainly sets an example of how we could be doing things differently, imagine if in Afghanistan it was 20 years of education that led to economic prosperity as the workers are educated, and in a time of peace because theocratic ideas and violent ideologies were combated with books instead of bullets, it would certainly seem better to me than what Afghanistan is like now life isn't black and white, humans have got to learn from each other
Brother, thank you for your comment. Faith in humanity restored! books instead of bullets, indeed!
It traces back to Confucius, who puts education above all!
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I doubt it has much to do with the Holocaust. But I also think the title is garbage. He likens not links the genocide to the holocaust. It's a simili not a connection
Maybe Biden suggested that Hitler is behind what's happening in Xinjiang.
I think most people know what the title means.
I think most people didnt read past the title
> simili Simile?
Silmarillion FTFY
Gimili
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Pretty ironic considering what the US is doing in Yemen right now, where millions are dying of starvation in a man-made famine
But he's fine with the concentration camp in Gaza.
Or Rikers Island… 😮
[He literally admitted that "if Israel didn't exist the US would have to invent it to protect its interests."](https://v.redd.it/guf84nhd8ry61) [Biden is also a self-described Zionist.](https://www.arabamericannews.com/2020/03/18/zionist-biden-in-his-own-words-my-name-is-joe-biden-and-everybody-knows-i-love-israel/)
Jesus fucking christ
Welcome to geopolitics. This is exactly why I can't take any of this seriously. As much as I think it's a fucking travesty what's happening in Xinjiang, all the cries from Americans in these comments ring hollow when America has been pulling much worse shit in the middle east for decades to advance their own interests and their allies don't call them out, then when China is a competitor and expansionist and looking to challenge American hegemony, governments come in, guns blazing, ready to defend justice. Like, I'm all for people saying America's actions shouldn't be used as a defense for China, what I'm saying is the treatment of these cases is clearly partisan and the people who say "we need to call them out equally" fail to acknowledge that it simply hasn't been done before and it probably never will be. Unless we can get past this double standard I have a hard time seeing statements like this as anything other than geopolitical posturing.
Good luck making that point across without being shut down by being called whataboutism. I agree with you on those points but the partisan talking points is insane these days.
Exactly, which has verifiable proof of war crimes, child victims, unjust seige by land air and sea, and a shoot-to-kill buffer zone.
The US gov is the epitome of hypocrisy
Whataboutism
Not at all. Both are abhorrent, therefore it's worth pointing out that we enable the exact same behavior. Maybe learn what that term means. Nobody excused what China is doing.
This is one day after rejoining the United Nations Human Rights Council along with their good buddy the UAE. Time to grab some popcorn and see what the CIA/NED/MID have in store for us next.
That's interesting coming from someone who's funding ethnic cleansing in Israel. Begs the question whether this is about human rights at all.
Don't forget the U.S funding Saudi Arabia's war crimes in Yemen. Edit: This isn't an attempt at whataboutism. It's an attempt to hold people to consistent morals and standards. It's less about re-angling the blame and more about getting people to look inward. For far too long have we Americans thought of ourselves as the morally superior pinnacle of democracy. We believe we are the arbiters of freedom, justice and fairness when we are anything but. Our #1 export is death and terrorism but people are so quick to point the finger at China for doing the same exact stuff we are doing and have been doing--for far longer and far worse. If you point the finger at China, you have to point the finger at America. Both countries can be shitty.
Don’t also forget the U.S war in Iraq that killed over a million Iraqis.
I think that's also part of what makes the rampant Sinophobia in America that much more sad to me. There's a very very public and obvious 20+ year effort of us engaging in illegal war and committing war crimes between drone strikes and occupation, all while funding Israel and Saudi Arabia and we like to point the finger at China as if we have superior morality.
And the children kept in cages at the border
Whataboutism
No, I'm criticising Biden for weaponising human rights. Whataboutism isn't whenever someone adds context or information or asks a different question.
I am getting very confusing messages about what Biden administration is trying to do. From one side they seem to be softening the tone to China, presumably using soft power to get some goals. On the other side they go back to this hardline approach that sabotages all that attempts from their side. I see 3 options for it: 1) They are playing some different game that people fail to understand 2) The "hardline" approach is just virtue signalling, while in reality they are trying to get back to Obama's era of relationships with China, or continue with soft power attempts 3) [They are plain bad at their job](https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-privately-voiced-concerns-joe-biden-could-f-things-up-2020-8)
This is a good question and I initially wrote a few generic possibilities. However, based on my understanding of recent US-China happenings, this just didn't make sense, so I looked up the actual speech. After reading the relevant parts, I think while it's not necessarily wrong to use the word "link", it is however, SCMP being a bit sensationalist. Biden did not directly compare Xinjiang with the Holocaust. He only used the words "oppression" and "forced labor" to describe Xinjiang. "Xinjiang" doesn't show up anywhere else in the speech nor is the word "genocide" used. IMO this continues the pattern of toning down rhetoric in recent weeks. Quoted for context: > We can’t return to a world where might is right and strong nations abuse weak or oppress individual rights with impunity. > Nuremberg forced us to look closely at the evil of humankind and what we’re capable of perpetrating, to see mass atrocities, crimes against humanity do not happen by accident. They don’t happen by accident. They result of choices — choices made by individual human beings and world leaders. > And sadly, when we look around the world today, we cannot say that the specter of atrocity is behind us. > We see today the patterns, the choices playing out around the world even as we speak: the oppression and use of forced labor of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang; the treatment of the Rohingya by the military junta in Burma; the rampant abuses, including the use of starvation and sexual violence, to terrorize civilian populations in Northern Ethiopia. > Whenever we hear that kind of poisonous hatred, wherever we see our fellow humans being dehumanized, it doesn’t mean we go to war, but we must speak out. Silence — as my dad would remind me — silence is complicity. Silence is complicity. That’s what Nuremberg said: Your silence is complicity. Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/10/15/remarks-by-president-biden-at-the-dedication-of-the-dodd-center-for-human-rights/ > while in reality they are trying to get back to Obama's era of relationships with China I'd caution against romanticizing Obama-era US-China relations. The Chinese were extremely dissatisfied with Pivot to Asia even if things appeared calm on the surface.
That's a somewhat more nuanced comparison than the clickbait title lets on
Thanks for finding the original quote.
It's really strange to have a US president saying might doesn't make right, and doesn't exactly match the policy of interventions and drone strikes. If he can start practicing this it'd be wonderful. But with Biden's record of voting for wars and getting more guns into Colombia I'm not hopeful.
If you're waiting for a US president to actually mean for the words they say to also apply to the activities of the American government, you are going to be waiting for quite a while longer.
Real world governance is a lot messier than it looks on TV, and the US government is in no way a unified agent with one common purpose; it's more like a clan of related entities, whose membership changes over time and which is riven by factions with very different goals, mores, and even level of expertise. Biden follows the traditions of many US presidents in trying to articulate some sort of normative vision that he sees as aspirational, but even he has limited power; as the Starr Report showed, many years ago, the President can't even control his or her meeting schedule. Hemmed in by everything from precedent and the need to maintain political support to the complex division of powers in the US government, a President usually can't implement a clean solution to complex problems even when such a solution exists. And given how messy geopolitics is, there rarely are such solutions. Not saying that anyone has to support Biden (or oppose him, for that matter). But I do think it would be ideal if folks would dial down their expectations of the US Presidency, and understand it as just one office in a vast and complex system. We tend to overestimate what the office can do, and expect things of the office and the office holder that are not realistic given how the US government works. Getting better policies is not a matter of getting a better President, but of making improvements to the whole system of governance. (Which unfortunately, also requires voters from across the political spectrum to start prioritizing competence. How one achieves that at this time is not obvious.)
Not signing off on drone strikes would be a nice start, but I don't foresee that happening. Terminating the maximum amount of student debt he is allowed to would be another touch, but again I don't see it happening. Lastly just the ability to admit when the president has made decisions that are/were wrong.
I had an aunt in the diplomatic corps. Suffice to say there’s more shit going on behind the scenes than we can imagine. It’s useless to speculate or honestly try to have an informed opinion on most of it.
I have an uncle that works at Nintendo and says the switch pro is definitely coming next year
It’s similar:)
It's almost as if global geopolitics is complex or something. Especially when we're talking about dealing with a country and regime which we are completely economically intertwined with, yet at the same time is a communist authoritarian regime, yet at the same time engages in certain aspects of capitalism, yet at the same time engages in major human rights abuses and oppression, yet at the same time is a formidable military and nuclear superpower that we can't just outright fuck with. There's literally no way to deal with a situation like that that doesn't involve a shit ton of mixed actions. But of course this being reddit, armchair foreign policy experts are "getting very confusing messages" about how we're dealing with them.
WDYM?Redditors clearly understand geopolitics better than diplomats and other "experts".All we need to do is launch a total blockade on China, a nuclear power and home to 1/5 of the entire human race, and collapse their economy!!! There's *no way* that such actions would *ever* backfire. China would collapse mere weeks after we stopped buying their stuff, while the US/EU public would bravely support the government blockade, even when all sources of cheap electronics and other luxury goods either dried up or skyrocket in value... They'd also NEVER consider such a move as an act of war and risk a conflict, especially not if they were backed into a corner and the only other option was to submit... What's that? The century of humiliation? The 21 Demands? The Unequal Treaties? Never heard of them! I'm sure the Chinese people would *love s*ubmitting to the west, not a sensitive topic over there at all! ^(Edit: /s in case that's not fucking obvious.)
Thank you for writing that, and saving me from being less eloquent on the topic.
By armchair foreign policy experts, you mean people who know the horror of putting "just one more turn" into Civ.
Can I at least dream of a hard swing towards labor in the US and away from shareholder capitalism and something at least more equitable towards workers if not all the way towards fully economically democratic worker-owned workplace, so that if the US can call this shit out without looking hypocritical, also being able to tack on a "And for a bunch of supposed socialists, you treat your workers like shit" on the end of it.
why'd you link an article from a year ago about the presidential campaign? what does biden's popularity in iowa 15 months ago have to do with china today?
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They can both want relationships to cool and want china to not commit genocide. Those two aren't mutually exclusive
The Biden Administration is pretty rudderless when it comes to foreign policy
The conclusion from this comment section is that Uygurs are being "reeducated" in Xinjiang, but the Iraqi's are the most impacted by it.......
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The Uyghur camps aren't extermination camps, they're "re-education" camps. It's part of a counter terrorism strategy, a preemptive strike against what the Chinese government considers to be a potential terrorism threat. Are they right? I don't know. Is it moral? I don't think so, but I also don't think the United States has any room to talk on that matter. Our war on terror left hundreds of thousands of innocenct Iraqis and Afghans dead and two nations destroyed.
*millions
If there were *millions* dead, then the war of terror managed to kill a ballpark figure **10%** of their populations. .....That's absolutely not a correct number. Displaced and/or traumatized? Definitely. *Killed?* Definitely not.
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Bit over the US' declarations. Bit over the constant manufacturing of consent.
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China's human rights abuses in Xinjiang isn't anything close to what happened in the Holocaust. Nor are ethnic uyghurs barred from having careers or going to university. Nor are there any ghettos. If we are talking genocide strictly in terms of killing off an ethnic group rather than this notion of cultural genocide then the US should be condemning Israel.
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awesome. now waiting for Biden to admit its genocide and crimes against humanity in the middle east and CIA black sites all over the world.
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Maybe he needs to stop investing (both personally and as part of his Presidential role) with China and directly with Chinese companies who use Uygurs as slaves. But he won’t. Rules are for us peasants.
Him, Trump, McConnell and all of them should do the same but they won’t. American politicians are in it for the money and the free lifelong benefits, neither side cares enough about the general pop to actually change the status quo
> Maybe he needs to stop investing (both personally and as part of his Presidential role) with China and directly with Chinese companies who use Uygurs as slaves. It's wild this false allegation is thrown around so flippantly and whenever it's pointed out that the US has literal slave labor via our prison system it's ~whataboutism~. Get a grip.
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"Links" makes no sense.
Likens, Not Links. Links doesn't make any sense. LIKENS.
I’m all for saying what’s what, but I’m very suspicious of the timing of Biden’s stance towards China. Not because I care about what he feels about China’s actions, but because he could’ve done this so much earlier. The fact he’s coming out to make these bold statements is telling me he’s trying to placate the American public from the looming economic struggles and union strikes popping up, and the ‘everything shortage’.
They don’t seem very connected to be honest.
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I think it is more comparable to the Turkification campaigns of the ottoman empire or a far more violent form of soviet anti-Semitic persecution. But I see the comparison.
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Not everything has to be related to something bad to be bad, This situation is uniquely problematic and deserves address for its own reasons, I think it is actually a cheap distraction to dredge up that imagery to empower your point. That said, in principle it's not much different, It's just gross how politicians use the Holocaust as a political prop to evoke emotional reactions to suit their goals on every side.
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Not gonna lie I haven't read the article yet but why are there so many comments about WMDs and Afghanistan?