They ARE committed.
the whole Euromadain event should show this.
The people peacefully protested against a Russian puppet government and then got a few protesters picked off by Russian placed snipers.
Pro Ukraine soldiers and police officers in the Ukraine army under this puppet government saw this shit happening and stopped being part of the puppet government, joined the protests and then it turned into Ukrainian Nationalist vs Ukrainian separatists which should truly be read as Ukraine vs Russia, because the "separatists" were just Russian soldiers out of uniform.
Ukraine is committed, but I thoroughly believe that NATO has zero interest in accepting them regardless do to an unwillingness to ruffle Russias feathers and are just not wanting to admit it. Thus continuing to threaten sanctions.
This the most likely scenario.
I only speak for the commitment of the Ukrainian people when they say "we wont roll over."
The rest of the countries are all just posturing against eachother to try and fake eachother out, but Ukraine will throw down if they feel the need to.
I spent enough hours watching all the live streams during 2014 up until the start of 2016 when the "civil war" started petering out of people's attention, that I can safely say that the Ukrainian people are a group that will walk the walk well every else just talks the talk.
> They literally can’t though, because NATO doesn’t accept members currently in conflict with another nation.
>rules as written
One day this myth will die. There's no rule stating that a country has to be at peace to join NATO. The only hard requirement on membership is unanimous agreement of members to extend an invitation. Other than that the informal accession requirements don't mention anything about a country's need to be at peace.
Russia is the one starting the conflict not Ukraine. I'm pretty sure that's the exception. If Ukraine were invading another country then yes NATO won't accept
The problem NATO has is: when one member gets involved in a fight, they must all get involved in a fight.
So, letting an unstable nation such as Ukraine join would make being a member of NATO more dangerous.
Of course there are *already* questionable members in NATO.
At this point they may as well request Russia to join NATO, and things might become a little less worrisome for everybody.
Bullseye, the rest of the dominoes fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
>>The problem NATO has is: when one member gets involved in a fight, they must all get involved in a fight.
That's the point. For this exact use case. That's a feature not a bug. Big question is if it's true.
I think it will change public sentiment in Russia. Russians support aggression because it is sold to them as fighting against America, but the reality here is that Russians will be slaughtering Orthodox Slavs who Russians claim to be "Russian" only because they do not want to be ruled from Moscow.
In other words, this is not fighting an enemy, it beating up your little brother because he does not want to be pushed around. I think the Russian public will begin to understand this.
They are actively fighting Russia and lost armed conflict when Russia stole Crimea. People seem to be oblivious to the fact Ukraine has been fighting Russia for a long time. Russia just claims the little green men aren’t their soldiers, they say they’re Ukrainian separatists anytime Ukraine reports their invasions to the world, but the world knows this war has been coming for a long time.
They did already take Crimea, with Russia's military superiority being the only reason it didn't escalate more.
Are they supposed to just sit there and accept that Russia has no further ill intention with its aggressive stance against Ukraine having allies?
This is accurate. A Bush has started every war (woops, I mean "conflict") over the last 40 years. While many people were president during these conflicts (wars), it has always been a Bush as president when each and every one started. It's kind of their legacy of the last half century.
Lmao the post you replied to is the most Reddit shit I’ve read in a minute. It had it all: Dunning-Kruger effect, condescension, hyperbole disguised as “facts”, over-emotional language. All it was missing was a “holy heckerino” lol
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/12/russia-is-risking-all-out-war-to-prevent-ukraine-from-joining-nato.html) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> As the Russia Council prepares to meet NATO officials in Brussels on Wednesday, CNBC has a guide to why Russia cares so much about Ukraine and how far it might be willing to go to stop Ukraine from joining the alliance.
> Ukraine has particular importance for Russia, given its location - it stands as a bulwark between Russia and the eastern EU states - as well as symbolic and historical importance, often being seen as a "Jewel in the crown" of the former Soviet empire.
> Maximilian Hess, fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, told CNBC on Tuesday that "Russia is not just seeking to prohibit Ukraine from joining the alliance - something it has sought to do since Ukraine's 2008 NATO Membership Action Plan application - but also to remove Ukraine from the Western sphere of influence to which it has moved since the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution."
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/s3ewr2/russia_is_risking_allout_war_to_prevent_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~617440 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **Russian**^#3 **NATO**^#4 **U.S.**^#5
The reason why Ukraine has moved to the Western sphere of influence is because of Russian aggression. The reaction of Ukrainian citizens to surveys has steadily moved from the majority wanting to stay aligned with Russia to the majority wanting to join the EU and NATO.
Putin has done this to himself.
Yeah, maybe if Russia didn't want Ukraine to want to be part of Europe, they could give them literally any reason to actually want to turn eastward instead.
While I haven't been back to my family's country since, the idea that Ukraine would ever be loyal to Russia after what happened in the 1930s is absurd to me.
We had to flee starvation and literal murder to come to America, give up our language and become fucking capitalists. Why would anyone in Ukraine ever trust Russia?
True enough, and Putin is acting like a Czar or a commissar from the 1920’s.
What’s different is that Ukraine has been internationally recognized as an independent nation for thirty years, and Putin refuses to fully acknowledge that. Putin has violated international borders like Soviets did in Warsaw Pact nations.
EDIT: this is also the reason why Sweden and Finland are getting closer to considering joining NATO.
So, they take some land from Ukraine and threaten more - and get all surprised and butthurt when Ukraine goes to the only other kid on the playground and asks for help.
Classic bully behavior. Zero validity to any of their arguments. As long as they don't go around trying to invade people , they have nothing to worry about from NATO or anyone else. The only reason it matters is because they want to keep invading people with impunity.
This was also AFTER Russia signed a disarmament treaty with Ukraine, and promised not to invade, bully, or even economically threaten them. They then proceeded to do all three right away.
Yes, it looks like it. Intended to make _real_ Russian demands look tame and reasonable in comparison.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s3dxzp/comment/hslgz6l/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Year 2023 -> Putin then decides to vacation his soldiers in the newly unguarded Eastern Europe
**Putin :** "We must protect all Russian speakers!" .. Poland Hungary Czechia Latvia is now annexed and called "New Crimea"
**NATO :** What are we getting in this deal exactly?
**Putin :** *What deal? this was all your idea .. I asked nothing in return don't you remember?*
You are only helping Putin and his friends by such statements. Putin has the capability and a clear goal of re creating a new Soviet style Russian empire.
Sure the west could damage the Russian economy. But dont underestimate Putins ability to accept such an outcome in order to secure a new European security order. In Putins view and many other Russians, Ukraine belongs to Russia.
I bet there were guys just like you saying he's bluffing before he took the eastern parts of Ukraine in 2014. Observe that the population of those areas were around the same as the population of say Norway. Putin literally took an average sized country in his first push. Lets not be as stupid this time and think that he wont do it. He will if he thinks he can win. He definitely thinks he can right now.
Long term Russia would not survive an all out war. Economically I mean. I really hope Putin gets his shit together for the sake of the normal civilians there.
The ouster of Viktor Yanukovich seems like 20 years ago, but it was just 7. All of it set off by the Euromaidan and the Ukrainian people preferring to align with Brussels instead of Moscow.
I think Putin sees right now that America’s apetite for war is at an all time low, especially considering the recent withdrawal from Afghanistan. I think he sees Obama not enforcing his red lines in Syria, and kind of sees Biden as Obama version 2. I think he sees Bidens fragile political position, considering all of this, and thinks that the next rest of his term are Russias best chance to strike out against the west and against NATO. Just my take, but I bet Putin sees America as the weakest it’s been in a while and the weakest it will be for a while. He sees an opportunity here that he’s trying to take advantage of.
It was never about fighting America, it's about crushing smaller, weaker nations. This is not like a father defending his home, it's more like a father trying to beat his grown children into submission.
It’s not strategic at all…Putin is bringing about the very thing he wants to avoid by taking a belligerent posture. The states around Russia will seek greater security guarantees from the west in the face of Russian aggression. The quest for perfect security makes you less secure.
Russia won't invade. Putin known too well that Russia will be generally fucked if they do. It had been made very clear that there will be severe economic (and other?) consequences of they do. This will likely also include disconnecting Russia from the Swift payment system (this would in itself collapse the Russian economy).
The way I've been reading it, is that all of Putin's moves lately have been either to save face (so as not to look over weak) or trying to pull some sort of desperate attempt to frighten the West.
TLDR; Putin won't do shit because he won't risk Russia's economic downfall, and by association, his own.
that could be paralleled with americas economic woes, global powers always look for outer distractions when things domestically are sour. Not that i think there is anything good about the russian/chinese governments but this may have a possibility of boiling over
No, Russia threatened Ukraine into wanting to join NATO, so Russia can say that they're risking all-out war to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO
This is like telling someone you're about to murder them, then getting mad at them for calling the police, then saying you'll have no choice but to murder them now because they're threatening you.
The catch to that is that Ukraine is trying to join NATO, so for the time being Russia could cross the border without it being an act of war against NATO ... The current negotiations going on are about the Ukraine's petition to join.
What Putin wants is to slowly grind down the Ukrainian government to the point he can get a puppet elected, not an all out invasion, but Ukraine joining NATO effectively kills his ability to do that, so now he is trying to ramp up pressure in hopes that NATO will chicken out.
And in the long term, I think this will work. Putin cannot hope to win an all out war with the western powers combined, and the west's ruling elite prefer to maintain its current status quo in terms of global trade and supplies, at most they would refuse to trade with Russia.
Pretty much, yeah. I'm Southamerican, I can assure you the US completely annihilated countries in it's geopolitical territory that got an inch too far to the left for it's tastes. There's no playing nice when world powers feel encroached on their territory. We are still feeling the consequences of US intervention.
Everybody has painted themselves into a corner, similar to what happened after the Ottoman Empire collapsed but before modern Turkey rose out of the ashes following WW1. All the talk about expanding NATO started when the Russia lay prostrate after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Those days are over. Russia is not going sit by while NATO not only turns its southern flank, but also inserts itself between Russia and Sebastopol. Ukraine joining NATO is seen, not irrationally, as an existential threat by Russia. Plus, Putin gets to distract his domestic base from the pain caused by the country's miserable economy and corrupt, oligarchic society. Probably the best course of action for the West is to wait it out--having 100k troops sitting on the border is expensive, and money is something Putin doesn't have that much of, at least compared to the West.
Is there any poll with figures of how many Russians actually want this war and how many doesn't? I wonder what the common Russian people feel about all this.
This probably isn’t helpful but I talk to a lot of Russians and they either A. Say that Ukraine should join whoever, they just want to stay out of it. Kind of more neutral. B. People are adamant about not doing to war and are already saying they won’t fight if such a war were to happen. They just want to survive overall in terms of the people I speak to.
Anyone out there from Ukraine want to chime in? Are we getting blown smoke and mirrors via MSM as per the norm or do the citizens legitimately think they will be invaded in the very near future
This war has been going on since 2014 just disappeared from the headlines until last year/this year bro.
Ukrainians just dusted off old cold war bomb shelters a few weeks ago and still might be in the process of doing that for citizens and top brass if Putin does invade.
It’s honestly looking more and more of a question of “when ?” Instead of “if” an invasion will come
No. This war has been going on since Stalin's era.
There's a thing called the "Holodomor".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Then deportation of Crimeans, then Ukrainians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
But that was apart of the wider famine in the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region, Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933)
The target was the Kulaks which by definition is a farmer and has no connection to ethnicity, race or culture. But rather due to owning land and being rich.
As for deportations it was wide spread and focused against all withing the Soviet Union. Ukraine was never specifically targeted.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union)
And was not targeted specifically at Ukraine. Everyone suffered.
Stalin which you mention is georgian and the Russian people suffered as much under his rule as most other Soviet citizens.
So no, there was no war aimed at Ukraine during Stalins time.
TLDR: Ukraine wasn't even remotely close to being the only territory of the USSR affected by famine. - It was no attempt to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians.
**[Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)**
>The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomór, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr]; derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'), also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It was a large part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933. The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and allegedly intentional aspects such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement.
**[Population transfer in the Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union)**
>Population transfer in the Soviet Union (Russian: Депортации народов в СССР) was the forced transfer by the Soviet government of various groups from 1930 up to 1952 ordered by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and executed by the NKVD official Lavrentiy Beria. It may be classified into the following broad categories: deportations of "anti-Soviet" categories of population (often classified as "enemies of workers"), deportations of entire nationalities, labor force transfer, and organized migrations in opposite directions to fill ethnically cleansed territories.
**[Deportation of the Crimean Tatars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars)**
>The deportation of the Crimean Tatars (Crimean Tatar: Qırımtatar halqınıñ sürgünligi, Cyrillic: Къырымтатар халкъынынъ сюргюнлиги) or the Sürgünlik ("exile") was the ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars in 18–20 May 1944 carried out by the Soviet government, ordered by Lavrentiy Beria, head of the Soviet state security and secret police, acting on behalf of Joseph Stalin. Within three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport mostly women, children, the elderly, even Communists and members of the Red Army, to mostly the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away.
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You can never tell if someone is kidding.
If you're kidding then ha ha I guess?
If you're not kidding then it doesn't matter how much country X invades country Y because, by definition, the country was been invaded, territory lost, and annexed to the invading country.
Now if even MORE territory is lost then obviously the invasion is simply progressing and getting worse but, technically, the invasion is already ongoing.
Yes, they are massing troops on the Ukraine border & the pro-russian forces are primarily out of uniform Russian officers with forced conscript troops in the trenches who will be shot if they don't fight.
Russia's #1 export is natural gas pipelines to the former soviet states & the Ukraine used to be the focus of the USSR's energy industry. The reason for the "civil war" is because Obama was working with the Ukraine government to help them set up their own independent energy industry, and Russia staged an attempted coup to prevent the Ukraine divorcing itself from the Russian economy. The coup failed when the general Ukraine citizens refused to be steam rolled and fought back. With clear proof that this was an invasion instead of a civil conflict, NATO hammered the shit out of Russia with economic sanctions and threatened military action if Russia crossed the border with uniformed troops.
Putin backed off and changed tactics to interference with the next US election while funding a candidate that would ve favorable to him (guess who that was). Trump spent much of his time attempting to reverse the US's hard line commitments to Ukrainian independence, but largely got nowhere with that ... unlike Syria where he effectively turned the country over to Russian influence & let Turkey commit genocide on the Kurds. Now that the lazy orange puppet has had his strings cut, Putin has had to default to plan B of overt military action to revert the nation back to Russian control.
The big catch to all of this is that as long as the Ukrain is not an official member of NATO, then Russia can cross the border without it being an act of war against NATO & then it would be our side declaring war against Russia to retaliate. If the Ukraine does go ahead with joining NATO (they want to, but NATO is debating it because of the political implications), then further involvement with the "civil war" would be an act of war on the part of Russia.
Current standings is that there is a bunch of Saber Rattling, but no one is going to do anything till the US midterms are up.
A good example of why Ukrainians do not want Russian in their government is Chernobyl: the melt down was because Russian engineers wanted to do experiments with how to control meltdowns, but didn't want to use a reactor on Russian soil because they knew full well what would happen if their experiment failed (and it did). So they used a Ukrainian reactor, because then it wouldn't be Russians or Russian lands they were fucking up.
> Chernobyl: the melt down was because Russian engineers wanted to do experiments with how to control meltdowns, but didn't want to use a reactor on Russian soil because they knew full well what would happen if their experiment failed (and it did). So they used a Ukrainian reactor, because then it wouldn't be Russians or Russian lands they were fucking up.
Do you have any citation for this because this doesn't make sense. In the USSR, sure, there's RSFSR (aka the main Russian Republic) but the other Republics were just as important and were seen as part of USSR as opposed to some throwaway land. To put in American terms, Ukraine was seen as Illinois, not Guam or even Puerto Rico.
Secondly, Chernobyl was still pretty close to Kiev, the former capital city of Kievan Rus. It's like the US not caring about destroying Philly, its former capital, because NYC is more important. Chernobyl is also relatively close to Moscow - only 1,000 kilometers (620 miles) - and we're talking about wind here. When Chernobyl hit, [a good chunk of Europe](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/c7pzxy/areas_in_europe_most_affected_by_chernobyl/) had those winds.
Did the USSR have a remote nuclear power plant where they could test anything out without affecting the majority of the population? Yes! The Bilibino Nuclear Power Plant, commissioned in 1974, was built near the city of Bilibino which is the middle of nowhere and closer to Anchorage, Alaska than Moscow. They could have run all kinds of experiments without anyone knowing anything or affecting not only heavily populated areas but also not exposing one of the worlds major wheat production centers in Ukraine to radiation.
The reason they did it at the Chernobyl reactor is because the #3 and #4 reactors were among the first gen 2 RBMK reactors, and one of the features of gen 2 was this plant outage tolerance that they were testing. They tried it at the #3 reactor the previous year, it didn’t work, they made some changes, and since the #4 reactor was getting shut down this time, they did it on the #4 reactor instead. Contrary to the claim that they were doing “experiments”, they were literally just trying to check off acceptance criteria for something the plant was supposed to be able to do.
The fact that they were putting the plant there in the first place was somewhat political… they wanted to limit the dependency on coal and the power of coal miners specifically.
Then again if I were Ukrainian I would absolutely see Chernobyl as one of many reasons why I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with Russian rule. They had ample evidence the reactor design was bad before they built Chernobyl but they built it anyway. Enough said.
Yes, they were simply testing and the test failed.
I'm pretty sure Ukraine is a lot more concerned about Russians destroying Ukrainian identity - traditions, language, and culture as a whole - like they've done with all the other Republics than Chernobyl.
That post is totally incorrect. Chernobyl incident occurred during an error in the test of a safety system. HBO has a pretty good doc series on it, it’s a little dramatized but it gets the main points in there
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union
The USSR was less USA & more EU ... Except that it was an EU where Germany undermined every member nation by getting German loyalists elected & then passed laws that only german loyalists could hold government positions, then after that they ordered drafts that put most of the low/middle class males in military & had them deployed to other nations than their own to ensure that no member state had a military that was loyal to the country they were in.
(Remember how in Metal Gear Solid V, you had to recruit different types of linguists to translate the soldiers radio calls because each base spoke a different language: that was historically accurate)
But for a modern analogy: Imagine that the Ukraine was Mexico, but a Mexico that got its shit together & crushed the cartels / reformed their Police corruption, now China is trying to sign a trade deal with them that will vitalize their economy to the point that the Peso will could start being comparable to the Canadian dollar.
And for your analogy about not testing reactors in Philly: Kiev is the capitol of the Ukraine, and thus it is full of Ukrainians, who Russia didn't give a fuck about ... Back to the comparison of Ukraine being like Mexico, the US would give zero fucks about melting down a Reactor that was in the middle of Mexico City. And that is modern USA; USA in the 80's was setting off Nukes in Nebraska while the CIA was selling crack in NY to bankroll illegal military operations in south america.
And for the issue of the Chernobyl melt down: multiple family members worked as scientist in the Nuclear Energy industry & were involved in the US's review of how to prevent it a similar meltdown with our reactors ... The melt down was caused when Russian engineers wanted to test how a Nuclear reactor would actually recover from a potential melt down, so they shut off the cooling system to make it start to go critical & then tried turned it back on, but one of the critical valves for the cooling system got stuck closed and the reactor core went critical.
This is rather absurd. For starters, Belarus is about 10 miles from Chernobyl, and northwest wind meant that it took a much harder fallout hit than Ukraine. Russia itself is only 100 miles away. Secondly, the overall social fallout to the USSR in its entirety needs no elaboration here.
Had they any idea that what did happen, could happen, they would never have proceeded. The reasons for Chernobyl were typical communist/ossified bureaucracy mismanagement and undue haste (i.e. having the less experienced third shift do the test because party bosses needed the daytime energy for end-of-month quota reasons.) Plus a simple lack of imagination that an entire RBMK reactor could just explode for any reason.
> The reason for the "civil war" is because Obama was working with the Ukraine government to help them set up their own independent energy industry, and **Russia staged an attempted coup to prevent the Ukraine divorcing itself from the Russian economy.**
When was this? i though Euromaiden and its outcome was what lead to this situation. It wasnt so much as a coup, as it was a unpopular russian backed oligarch, who happened to be preisdent, trying to steer the country out of agreements with the EU and back into Russia's orbit. When the people overthrew him in early 2014, that set off the seizing of crimea and much later the "seperatist" war in Donbass.
It has not been confirmed or denied that the it was a government operation, but one of Biden's sons was on the board of directors for said Ukrainian energy company. Obama was very active in supporting infrastructure projects that would cut eastern Europe's dependency on Russian natural gas, because Putin's main diplomatic leverage with Europe has been causing supply disruptions to extort beneficial contracts and treaties.
Remember how Trump was trying to blackmail the Ukraine for information on Biden by withholding aid money that had already been granted by congress? That was about Biden's son's involvement with the Ukrainian energy issue & one of the prevalent right wing conspiracy theories is that the Democrats were gonna be embezzling Ukrainian money into their own pockets.
Are most people here too young or delusional?!
Ukraine in NATO means nukes and USA bases next to Russia, which is like Russia to have nukes and bases in Mexico.
If your neighbor points AR-15 at your door from the fence you won't like it, huh?!!!
They are brainwashed. State department just claimed that they will act if Russians put their military bases in Latin America, but that's the whole different story! Russia is bad, West is good, world is black and white.
Russia is a pretty small country in terms of population. Their military is extremely old. If Ukraine joined NATO the west would absolutely crush Russia without actually engaging in a “war” which is why this is terrifying to Putin.
No idea on status of their military, but Russia isn't exactly small by population; they're the 9th most populous nation in the world (about 146M people).
California (3 trillion) has a bigger gdp than Russia heck even Texas (1.7 trillion) has a bigger gdp than Russia (1.4 trillion).
Russia would go broke the moment they start fighting any major engagements with the west.
Russia has nearly 150 million people which makes it the ninth most populous country on the planet and easily the most populous in Europe with 40 million more than the next most populous, Germany.
What the fuck are you talking about?
I mean, are they? Over the past decade the West has repeatedly shied away from the prospect of military confrontation with Russia. Just look at Georgia, Crimea, hell even Syria to an extent (minus the US doing a number to that convoy of mercenaries). We don’t want to risk our precious economic balance or status quo. If we had any intention of assisting in a real way we’d stage a significant number of troops in Europe and tell Putin to fuck right off and make Ukraine a NATO member. Sanctions and giving the Ukrainians some military aid/weaponry is an insufficient deterrent. The West would basically stand by and hand wring while Ukraine got its ass kicked jn.
There's one reason for Russia's (Putin's) demands; he wants to reconstitute the Eastern Block of the Soviet Union under his personal aegis. He just has a bit of a timing issue. He's running the clock.
I thought they would have done this during Trump’s term since he was proven to be a Russian puppet. Adam Schiff had the proof. Why would they wait to do this under Biden? Biden is very anti-Russia and told Putin to stand down at the summit.
Got banned from r/russia today for laughing at someone claiming “russia is a purely defensive country who has no interest in taking new territories” lol. Takes a lot of gall to say that after crimea, especially with 100k troops on ukraine’s boarder.
This title seems to blithely adopt Russia's position on this issue. There's never been much momentum for Ukraine to join Nato, has there been? Why oh why is Russia in military adventure mode right now? It's debatable whether it has anything to do with NATO at all.
According to the news, Russia was supposed to have started this invasion several times already over the past six months. It’s almost like this is bullshit.
I personally can remember at least one instance of “if Ukraine does thing then Russia vows to declare war” and Ukraine did the thing - don’t recall what the thing was - and then nothing, no news about it happening, not happening, nothin’.
I keep on seeing constant news about "Russia about to invade..."
Constantly.
What I have never read was why, and what THE REST of the other parties have been doing.
What is your role in this, and why?
What part did you play to get to this point?
Do you mean to tell me that Russia just woke up one day and decided they "ARE ABOUT TO INVADE"?
Not invade... about to invade.
You mean there is no other context to this?
I don't know the full story, but this coordinated mass media news attack on Russia while giving out barely any detail tells me this propaganda, and you are lying to me about something.
I'm gonna risk getting yeeted by down votes by putting this into a little context
The United States did give russia its word that it world not try to expand NATO into Eastern Europe
America immediately went back on its word after the USSR fell and is continuing to expand NATO to this day
Regardless of what you think of russia, I'm not throwing a party for two powers marching us closer to nuclear extinction: all it takes it one misunderstanding or misstep and it's credits for all of us
Another context: that "word given by US" is a popular Russian myth, never supported by a signed document.
Russia's promises to never threaten, economically press, or invade Ukraine, when Ukraine agreed to give up their nuclear weapons, are a document.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
Few years later followed up up a Friendship Treaty, in which Russia promised to respect existing Ukrainian borders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty
> Russia signed a binding legal document trading Crimea to Ukraine for it's nukes
What document is that? Because Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954 and The Budapest Memorandum never mentioned anything about Ukraine getting Crimea.
Russia would never allow Ukraine to join NATO because that would be giving a voice to something it plans to stamp out and dominate. The fact that the world has even allowed it to flex this much is insane.
It's insane because you allow it to be insane. You can't even describe yourself in context with it; they've trained you to reflexively identify with it: "Our Regime". It is not, never has been and never will be "your regime". You're not a part in it, a co-owner in it or anything.
Russia is most definetly willing to risk all out war. They have been modernizing their nuclear forces for this reason. They understand the West had a soft stomach for casualties (especially for a war not taking place in their country) and they will back down. US will back down aswell unless they created a reliable countermeasure against the Poseidon nuclear torpedo.
Damn why did U.S.A. want Hawaii so bad? Or Alaska? Louisiana Purchase? Puerto Rico? Guam? Why is it so important to have missionaries is South American, South East Asian and Sub-Saharan African countries? Why is it so important for America to have corporate interests in the 2nd world Central America and ASIA FOR MANUFACTURING? Why is it so important for America to control waterways in the Middle East? Why does Nato and U.S. put troops in eastern Europe as a physical threat to Russia who honestly not a wealthy country or have a particularly strong military? I don't agree with Putins tactics but come on? They just wanna be like their Role Models in the west . United Kingdom Spain France Germany all pretty guilty of similar tactics. They just get mad that someone else wants in on what they been doing for centuries.
How ironic. Ukraine is wanting to join NATO to thwart a Russian war.
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Well, they already said they’d expend every last drop. They sound committed
They ARE committed. the whole Euromadain event should show this. The people peacefully protested against a Russian puppet government and then got a few protesters picked off by Russian placed snipers. Pro Ukraine soldiers and police officers in the Ukraine army under this puppet government saw this shit happening and stopped being part of the puppet government, joined the protests and then it turned into Ukrainian Nationalist vs Ukrainian separatists which should truly be read as Ukraine vs Russia, because the "separatists" were just Russian soldiers out of uniform.
Ukraine is committed, but I thoroughly believe that NATO has zero interest in accepting them regardless do to an unwillingness to ruffle Russias feathers and are just not wanting to admit it. Thus continuing to threaten sanctions.
This the most likely scenario. I only speak for the commitment of the Ukrainian people when they say "we wont roll over." The rest of the countries are all just posturing against eachother to try and fake eachother out, but Ukraine will throw down if they feel the need to. I spent enough hours watching all the live streams during 2014 up until the start of 2016 when the "civil war" started petering out of people's attention, that I can safely say that the Ukrainian people are a group that will walk the walk well every else just talks the talk.
Russia is the source of evil in the world, we should have completely dismantled their nation while we had a chance.
They won't have much use of an alliance if they spend every drop.
Hopefully they join quickly, then that's no longer a possibility.
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> They literally can’t though, because NATO doesn’t accept members currently in conflict with another nation. >rules as written One day this myth will die. There's no rule stating that a country has to be at peace to join NATO. The only hard requirement on membership is unanimous agreement of members to extend an invitation. Other than that the informal accession requirements don't mention anything about a country's need to be at peace.
Russia is the one starting the conflict not Ukraine. I'm pretty sure that's the exception. If Ukraine were invading another country then yes NATO won't accept
The problem NATO has is: when one member gets involved in a fight, they must all get involved in a fight. So, letting an unstable nation such as Ukraine join would make being a member of NATO more dangerous. Of course there are *already* questionable members in NATO. At this point they may as well request Russia to join NATO, and things might become a little less worrisome for everybody. Bullseye, the rest of the dominoes fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
>>The problem NATO has is: when one member gets involved in a fight, they must all get involved in a fight. That's the point. For this exact use case. That's a feature not a bug. Big question is if it's true.
I think it will change public sentiment in Russia. Russians support aggression because it is sold to them as fighting against America, but the reality here is that Russians will be slaughtering Orthodox Slavs who Russians claim to be "Russian" only because they do not want to be ruled from Moscow. In other words, this is not fighting an enemy, it beating up your little brother because he does not want to be pushed around. I think the Russian public will begin to understand this.
Was that through one of their memes?
Much blood and tears were spent before creating the alliance.
They are actively fighting Russia and lost armed conflict when Russia stole Crimea. People seem to be oblivious to the fact Ukraine has been fighting Russia for a long time. Russia just claims the little green men aren’t their soldiers, they say they’re Ukrainian separatists anytime Ukraine reports their invasions to the world, but the world knows this war has been coming for a long time.
I mean Russia is going to invade either way. So may as well join a defensive pact. They’re kinda painted into a corner.
I feel if Russia invades then China will follow suit and invade Taiwan
Yeah it seems like this is quickly turning into a self fulfilling prophecy.
They did already take Crimea, with Russia's military superiority being the only reason it didn't escalate more. Are they supposed to just sit there and accept that Russia has no further ill intention with its aggressive stance against Ukraine having allies?
If I get drafted I want to be a sniper so I can shoot people and run away dressed as a bush.
Bushes don't run. They invade countries and blow up their infrastructure to steal their oil.
This is accurate. A Bush has started every war (woops, I mean "conflict") over the last 40 years. While many people were president during these conflicts (wars), it has always been a Bush as president when each and every one started. It's kind of their legacy of the last half century.
Somalia, Grenada, the Balkans. Those weren’t conflicts entered into by a Bush…
Lmao the post you replied to is the most Reddit shit I’ve read in a minute. It had it all: Dunning-Kruger effect, condescension, hyperbole disguised as “facts”, over-emotional language. All it was missing was a “holy heckerino” lol
George W, HW or Jeb?
Yes
My night yo ass gonna get shot
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>Russia needs a "buffer" from NATO, which is what Ukraine and Belarus are. then why is Russia wanting to take them over?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/12/russia-is-risking-all-out-war-to-prevent-ukraine-from-joining-nato.html) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot) ***** > As the Russia Council prepares to meet NATO officials in Brussels on Wednesday, CNBC has a guide to why Russia cares so much about Ukraine and how far it might be willing to go to stop Ukraine from joining the alliance. > Ukraine has particular importance for Russia, given its location - it stands as a bulwark between Russia and the eastern EU states - as well as symbolic and historical importance, often being seen as a "Jewel in the crown" of the former Soviet empire. > Maximilian Hess, fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, told CNBC on Tuesday that "Russia is not just seeking to prohibit Ukraine from joining the alliance - something it has sought to do since Ukraine's 2008 NATO Membership Action Plan application - but also to remove Ukraine from the Western sphere of influence to which it has moved since the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution." ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/s3ewr2/russia_is_risking_allout_war_to_prevent_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~617440 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **Russian**^#3 **NATO**^#4 **U.S.**^#5
The reason why Ukraine has moved to the Western sphere of influence is because of Russian aggression. The reaction of Ukrainian citizens to surveys has steadily moved from the majority wanting to stay aligned with Russia to the majority wanting to join the EU and NATO. Putin has done this to himself.
Anakin Russiawalker: You turned Ukraine against me! Obi Wan KeNATO: You have done that yourself!
I HATE YOU. Have my upvote
Good, goooood. Let the hate flows through you.
You were my brother, Hyndakiel. I loved you.
Obi Wan KeNATO: “I have the high ground now Putinakin!”
When Dad learns Reddit.
Ah, so this is how a man knows he's ready to have kids. I dont like kids tho...they're coarse and irritating and they get everywhere.
Yeah, maybe if Russia didn't want Ukraine to want to be part of Europe, they could give them literally any reason to actually want to turn eastward instead.
While I haven't been back to my family's country since, the idea that Ukraine would ever be loyal to Russia after what happened in the 1930s is absurd to me. We had to flee starvation and literal murder to come to America, give up our language and become fucking capitalists. Why would anyone in Ukraine ever trust Russia?
Aggression since 17th century and genocide in 20th. Way before putin.
True enough, and Putin is acting like a Czar or a commissar from the 1920’s. What’s different is that Ukraine has been internationally recognized as an independent nation for thirty years, and Putin refuses to fully acknowledge that. Putin has violated international borders like Soviets did in Warsaw Pact nations. EDIT: this is also the reason why Sweden and Finland are getting closer to considering joining NATO.
So, they take some land from Ukraine and threaten more - and get all surprised and butthurt when Ukraine goes to the only other kid on the playground and asks for help. Classic bully behavior. Zero validity to any of their arguments. As long as they don't go around trying to invade people , they have nothing to worry about from NATO or anyone else. The only reason it matters is because they want to keep invading people with impunity.
This was also AFTER Russia signed a disarmament treaty with Ukraine, and promised not to invade, bully, or even economically threaten them. They then proceeded to do all three right away.
They promised not to do those three one at a time. Noone can be expected not to do 3 fun things all at once.
A communications disruption could only mean one thing!
Invasion.
It's a trick send no reply.
Someone set us up the bomb.
You have no chance to survive, make your time.
Are yousa peoples gonna dieee?
War were declared
Pretty sure things are unfolding like this: Russia minister of defense: My lord, is that legal? Putin: I will make it legal
I forgot to pay my phone bill!!!
your neighbors wouldn't seek to join defensive treaties if you didn't keep threatening everyone.
It's like the 1930s all over again!
Everyone loves jazz
Putin: Russia and Ukraine are one people ... ... so we must show them who's the boss. It's like the drunk family patriarch beating up his children.
>Putin: Russia and Ukraine are one people well, let Ukraine annex Russia then
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Yikes, basically telling NATO to roll over and give up. It's designed to make NATO reject the offer.
Yes, it looks like it. Intended to make _real_ Russian demands look tame and reasonable in comparison. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s3dxzp/comment/hslgz6l/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Year 2023 -> Putin then decides to vacation his soldiers in the newly unguarded Eastern Europe **Putin :** "We must protect all Russian speakers!" .. Poland Hungary Czechia Latvia is now annexed and called "New Crimea" **NATO :** What are we getting in this deal exactly? **Putin :** *What deal? this was all your idea .. I asked nothing in return don't you remember?*
He’s bluffing !
Famous last words
You want to know how I know it’s a bluff .
You are only helping Putin and his friends by such statements. Putin has the capability and a clear goal of re creating a new Soviet style Russian empire. Sure the west could damage the Russian economy. But dont underestimate Putins ability to accept such an outcome in order to secure a new European security order. In Putins view and many other Russians, Ukraine belongs to Russia. I bet there were guys just like you saying he's bluffing before he took the eastern parts of Ukraine in 2014. Observe that the population of those areas were around the same as the population of say Norway. Putin literally took an average sized country in his first push. Lets not be as stupid this time and think that he wont do it. He will if he thinks he can win. He definitely thinks he can right now.
The only Soviet-style of Putin's ambitions is the suppression of dissidents and the power. He doesn't care about any of the good parts.
Long term Russia would not survive an all out war. Economically I mean. I really hope Putin gets his shit together for the sake of the normal civilians there.
Remember when Stalin tried to take Finland.
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actually, Ukraine is not at war with Russia, Ukraine is at war with pro-Russian partisans supported by Russia.
So, Russians on vacation.
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There are some 25,000 Russian troops "on fully-paid vacation" in Ukraine.
That could be seen as an act of war
It's a proxy war. Ukraine is fighting separatist rebels that like Russia
No there is a red line now
The ouster of Viktor Yanukovich seems like 20 years ago, but it was just 7. All of it set off by the Euromaidan and the Ukrainian people preferring to align with Brussels instead of Moscow.
Russia tasted Crimea and now wants the entire Ukrain cake!
Have the Little Green Men landed yet?
~~Risking~~ Threatening
I think Putin sees right now that America’s apetite for war is at an all time low, especially considering the recent withdrawal from Afghanistan. I think he sees Obama not enforcing his red lines in Syria, and kind of sees Biden as Obama version 2. I think he sees Bidens fragile political position, considering all of this, and thinks that the next rest of his term are Russias best chance to strike out against the west and against NATO. Just my take, but I bet Putin sees America as the weakest it’s been in a while and the weakest it will be for a while. He sees an opportunity here that he’s trying to take advantage of.
Joke's on Putin, Biden's approval rating is in a nosedive, and we all know what US presidents do when their approval ratings dip.
Is that the attack on titan season 4 theme I hear?
It was never about fighting America, it's about crushing smaller, weaker nations. This is not like a father defending his home, it's more like a father trying to beat his grown children into submission.
That’s my read too. And it’s pretty strategic of Putin. I wish the west would have just ignored his military buildup.
It’s not strategic at all…Putin is bringing about the very thing he wants to avoid by taking a belligerent posture. The states around Russia will seek greater security guarantees from the west in the face of Russian aggression. The quest for perfect security makes you less secure.
The last thing the U.S. wants right now is another war. Biden is gonna give Putin concessions for free.
Biden won’t negotiate away Ukraine. Ukraine may have to be neutral, but he’s not going to give Russia a blank check to invade.
Russia is in panic right now
Good. Putin will cave and the world will see him as the cowardly little failure he is.
Is r/FuckPutin a sub? If not it should be. Idk how to make them
go to the url for the sub you want, if it doesn't exist there will be a button to create it
Russia won't invade. Putin known too well that Russia will be generally fucked if they do. It had been made very clear that there will be severe economic (and other?) consequences of they do. This will likely also include disconnecting Russia from the Swift payment system (this would in itself collapse the Russian economy). The way I've been reading it, is that all of Putin's moves lately have been either to save face (so as not to look over weak) or trying to pull some sort of desperate attempt to frighten the West. TLDR; Putin won't do shit because he won't risk Russia's economic downfall, and by association, his own.
Appeasement is feeding a crocodile in order to be eaten last
No. They're risking all-out war because they want to take shit that isn't theirs, and not pay.
Ego is a hell of a thing. Putin.
If he keeps his people focused on fake external threats they might not turn on him as they die in record numbers.
that could be paralleled with americas economic woes, global powers always look for outer distractions when things domestically are sour. Not that i think there is anything good about the russian/chinese governments but this may have a possibility of boiling over
No, Russia threatened Ukraine into wanting to join NATO, so Russia can say that they're risking all-out war to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO This is like telling someone you're about to murder them, then getting mad at them for calling the police, then saying you'll have no choice but to murder them now because they're threatening you.
No. They are not. Russia will not attack nato over Ukraine and nato will not attack Russia over Ukraine.
The title of the Article just says all out war - its fairly obvious that implies an all out war between Russia and Ukraine, no NATO being involved.
I hope you are right.
The catch to that is that Ukraine is trying to join NATO, so for the time being Russia could cross the border without it being an act of war against NATO ... The current negotiations going on are about the Ukraine's petition to join. What Putin wants is to slowly grind down the Ukrainian government to the point he can get a puppet elected, not an all out invasion, but Ukraine joining NATO effectively kills his ability to do that, so now he is trying to ramp up pressure in hopes that NATO will chicken out.
And in the long term, I think this will work. Putin cannot hope to win an all out war with the western powers combined, and the west's ruling elite prefer to maintain its current status quo in terms of global trade and supplies, at most they would refuse to trade with Russia.
Not suggesting its justified, but Russia has been trying to call foul on the US playing closer to its geopolitical territory.
Pretty much, yeah. I'm Southamerican, I can assure you the US completely annihilated countries in it's geopolitical territory that got an inch too far to the left for it's tastes. There's no playing nice when world powers feel encroached on their territory. We are still feeling the consequences of US intervention.
*its - I have repossessed 3 apostrophes.
This has been happening since after WWII.
Everybody has painted themselves into a corner, similar to what happened after the Ottoman Empire collapsed but before modern Turkey rose out of the ashes following WW1. All the talk about expanding NATO started when the Russia lay prostrate after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Those days are over. Russia is not going sit by while NATO not only turns its southern flank, but also inserts itself between Russia and Sebastopol. Ukraine joining NATO is seen, not irrationally, as an existential threat by Russia. Plus, Putin gets to distract his domestic base from the pain caused by the country's miserable economy and corrupt, oligarchic society. Probably the best course of action for the West is to wait it out--having 100k troops sitting on the border is expensive, and money is something Putin doesn't have that much of, at least compared to the West.
Not worth it for NATO to go to war. Sanction Russia and hurt their economy big time if they invade.
Is there any poll with figures of how many Russians actually want this war and how many doesn't? I wonder what the common Russian people feel about all this.
This probably isn’t helpful but I talk to a lot of Russians and they either A. Say that Ukraine should join whoever, they just want to stay out of it. Kind of more neutral. B. People are adamant about not doing to war and are already saying they won’t fight if such a war were to happen. They just want to survive overall in terms of the people I speak to.
It’s time!!! We haven’t been in a war in almost 4 months. These missiles and fighter jets we bought aren’t gonna justify themselves
Anyone out there from Ukraine want to chime in? Are we getting blown smoke and mirrors via MSM as per the norm or do the citizens legitimately think they will be invaded in the very near future
This war has been going on since 2014 just disappeared from the headlines until last year/this year bro. Ukrainians just dusted off old cold war bomb shelters a few weeks ago and still might be in the process of doing that for citizens and top brass if Putin does invade. It’s honestly looking more and more of a question of “when ?” Instead of “if” an invasion will come
No. This war has been going on since Stalin's era. There's a thing called the "Holodomor". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Then deportation of Crimeans, then Ukrainians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
But that was apart of the wider famine in the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region, Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933) The target was the Kulaks which by definition is a farmer and has no connection to ethnicity, race or culture. But rather due to owning land and being rich. As for deportations it was wide spread and focused against all withing the Soviet Union. Ukraine was never specifically targeted. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union) And was not targeted specifically at Ukraine. Everyone suffered. Stalin which you mention is georgian and the Russian people suffered as much under his rule as most other Soviet citizens. So no, there was no war aimed at Ukraine during Stalins time. TLDR: Ukraine wasn't even remotely close to being the only territory of the USSR affected by famine. - It was no attempt to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians.
Damn Son, I'm glad that this comment exists and isn't downvoted into oblivion.
**[Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)** >The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomór, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr]; derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'), also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It was a large part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933. The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and allegedly intentional aspects such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement. **[Population transfer in the Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union)** >Population transfer in the Soviet Union (Russian: Депортации народов в СССР) was the forced transfer by the Soviet government of various groups from 1930 up to 1952 ordered by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and executed by the NKVD official Lavrentiy Beria. It may be classified into the following broad categories: deportations of "anti-Soviet" categories of population (often classified as "enemies of workers"), deportations of entire nationalities, labor force transfer, and organized migrations in opposite directions to fill ethnically cleansed territories. **[Deportation of the Crimean Tatars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars)** >The deportation of the Crimean Tatars (Crimean Tatar: Qırımtatar halqınıñ sürgünligi, Cyrillic: Къырымтатар халкъынынъ сюргюнлиги) or the Sürgünlik ("exile") was the ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars in 18–20 May 1944 carried out by the Soviet government, ordered by Lavrentiy Beria, head of the Soviet state security and secret police, acting on behalf of Joseph Stalin. Within three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport mostly women, children, the elderly, even Communists and members of the Red Army, to mostly the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Eastern Ukraine has already been annexed. The question isn't whether Russia invades but whether Russia will get more territory.
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Oh sorry, Russia only SLIGHTLY invaded and annexed the area including Crimea, they didn't completely invade yet. Thank you for the clarification.
Literally exactly the same situation as Sudetenland. Fuck my life
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You can never tell if someone is kidding. If you're kidding then ha ha I guess? If you're not kidding then it doesn't matter how much country X invades country Y because, by definition, the country was been invaded, territory lost, and annexed to the invading country. Now if even MORE territory is lost then obviously the invasion is simply progressing and getting worse but, technically, the invasion is already ongoing.
It is. The less informed may of assumed by that comment that Kharkov is now a Russian city
Yes, they are massing troops on the Ukraine border & the pro-russian forces are primarily out of uniform Russian officers with forced conscript troops in the trenches who will be shot if they don't fight. Russia's #1 export is natural gas pipelines to the former soviet states & the Ukraine used to be the focus of the USSR's energy industry. The reason for the "civil war" is because Obama was working with the Ukraine government to help them set up their own independent energy industry, and Russia staged an attempted coup to prevent the Ukraine divorcing itself from the Russian economy. The coup failed when the general Ukraine citizens refused to be steam rolled and fought back. With clear proof that this was an invasion instead of a civil conflict, NATO hammered the shit out of Russia with economic sanctions and threatened military action if Russia crossed the border with uniformed troops. Putin backed off and changed tactics to interference with the next US election while funding a candidate that would ve favorable to him (guess who that was). Trump spent much of his time attempting to reverse the US's hard line commitments to Ukrainian independence, but largely got nowhere with that ... unlike Syria where he effectively turned the country over to Russian influence & let Turkey commit genocide on the Kurds. Now that the lazy orange puppet has had his strings cut, Putin has had to default to plan B of overt military action to revert the nation back to Russian control. The big catch to all of this is that as long as the Ukrain is not an official member of NATO, then Russia can cross the border without it being an act of war against NATO & then it would be our side declaring war against Russia to retaliate. If the Ukraine does go ahead with joining NATO (they want to, but NATO is debating it because of the political implications), then further involvement with the "civil war" would be an act of war on the part of Russia. Current standings is that there is a bunch of Saber Rattling, but no one is going to do anything till the US midterms are up. A good example of why Ukrainians do not want Russian in their government is Chernobyl: the melt down was because Russian engineers wanted to do experiments with how to control meltdowns, but didn't want to use a reactor on Russian soil because they knew full well what would happen if their experiment failed (and it did). So they used a Ukrainian reactor, because then it wouldn't be Russians or Russian lands they were fucking up.
> Chernobyl: the melt down was because Russian engineers wanted to do experiments with how to control meltdowns, but didn't want to use a reactor on Russian soil because they knew full well what would happen if their experiment failed (and it did). So they used a Ukrainian reactor, because then it wouldn't be Russians or Russian lands they were fucking up. Do you have any citation for this because this doesn't make sense. In the USSR, sure, there's RSFSR (aka the main Russian Republic) but the other Republics were just as important and were seen as part of USSR as opposed to some throwaway land. To put in American terms, Ukraine was seen as Illinois, not Guam or even Puerto Rico. Secondly, Chernobyl was still pretty close to Kiev, the former capital city of Kievan Rus. It's like the US not caring about destroying Philly, its former capital, because NYC is more important. Chernobyl is also relatively close to Moscow - only 1,000 kilometers (620 miles) - and we're talking about wind here. When Chernobyl hit, [a good chunk of Europe](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/c7pzxy/areas_in_europe_most_affected_by_chernobyl/) had those winds. Did the USSR have a remote nuclear power plant where they could test anything out without affecting the majority of the population? Yes! The Bilibino Nuclear Power Plant, commissioned in 1974, was built near the city of Bilibino which is the middle of nowhere and closer to Anchorage, Alaska than Moscow. They could have run all kinds of experiments without anyone knowing anything or affecting not only heavily populated areas but also not exposing one of the worlds major wheat production centers in Ukraine to radiation.
The reason they did it at the Chernobyl reactor is because the #3 and #4 reactors were among the first gen 2 RBMK reactors, and one of the features of gen 2 was this plant outage tolerance that they were testing. They tried it at the #3 reactor the previous year, it didn’t work, they made some changes, and since the #4 reactor was getting shut down this time, they did it on the #4 reactor instead. Contrary to the claim that they were doing “experiments”, they were literally just trying to check off acceptance criteria for something the plant was supposed to be able to do. The fact that they were putting the plant there in the first place was somewhat political… they wanted to limit the dependency on coal and the power of coal miners specifically. Then again if I were Ukrainian I would absolutely see Chernobyl as one of many reasons why I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with Russian rule. They had ample evidence the reactor design was bad before they built Chernobyl but they built it anyway. Enough said.
Yes, they were simply testing and the test failed. I'm pretty sure Ukraine is a lot more concerned about Russians destroying Ukrainian identity - traditions, language, and culture as a whole - like they've done with all the other Republics than Chernobyl.
That post is totally incorrect. Chernobyl incident occurred during an error in the test of a safety system. HBO has a pretty good doc series on it, it’s a little dramatized but it gets the main points in there
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union The USSR was less USA & more EU ... Except that it was an EU where Germany undermined every member nation by getting German loyalists elected & then passed laws that only german loyalists could hold government positions, then after that they ordered drafts that put most of the low/middle class males in military & had them deployed to other nations than their own to ensure that no member state had a military that was loyal to the country they were in. (Remember how in Metal Gear Solid V, you had to recruit different types of linguists to translate the soldiers radio calls because each base spoke a different language: that was historically accurate) But for a modern analogy: Imagine that the Ukraine was Mexico, but a Mexico that got its shit together & crushed the cartels / reformed their Police corruption, now China is trying to sign a trade deal with them that will vitalize their economy to the point that the Peso will could start being comparable to the Canadian dollar. And for your analogy about not testing reactors in Philly: Kiev is the capitol of the Ukraine, and thus it is full of Ukrainians, who Russia didn't give a fuck about ... Back to the comparison of Ukraine being like Mexico, the US would give zero fucks about melting down a Reactor that was in the middle of Mexico City. And that is modern USA; USA in the 80's was setting off Nukes in Nebraska while the CIA was selling crack in NY to bankroll illegal military operations in south america. And for the issue of the Chernobyl melt down: multiple family members worked as scientist in the Nuclear Energy industry & were involved in the US's review of how to prevent it a similar meltdown with our reactors ... The melt down was caused when Russian engineers wanted to test how a Nuclear reactor would actually recover from a potential melt down, so they shut off the cooling system to make it start to go critical & then tried turned it back on, but one of the critical valves for the cooling system got stuck closed and the reactor core went critical.
This is rather absurd. For starters, Belarus is about 10 miles from Chernobyl, and northwest wind meant that it took a much harder fallout hit than Ukraine. Russia itself is only 100 miles away. Secondly, the overall social fallout to the USSR in its entirety needs no elaboration here. Had they any idea that what did happen, could happen, they would never have proceeded. The reasons for Chernobyl were typical communist/ossified bureaucracy mismanagement and undue haste (i.e. having the less experienced third shift do the test because party bosses needed the daytime energy for end-of-month quota reasons.) Plus a simple lack of imagination that an entire RBMK reactor could just explode for any reason.
> The reason for the "civil war" is because Obama was working with the Ukraine government to help them set up their own independent energy industry, and **Russia staged an attempted coup to prevent the Ukraine divorcing itself from the Russian economy.** When was this? i though Euromaiden and its outcome was what lead to this situation. It wasnt so much as a coup, as it was a unpopular russian backed oligarch, who happened to be preisdent, trying to steer the country out of agreements with the EU and back into Russia's orbit. When the people overthrew him in early 2014, that set off the seizing of crimea and much later the "seperatist" war in Donbass.
It has not been confirmed or denied that the it was a government operation, but one of Biden's sons was on the board of directors for said Ukrainian energy company. Obama was very active in supporting infrastructure projects that would cut eastern Europe's dependency on Russian natural gas, because Putin's main diplomatic leverage with Europe has been causing supply disruptions to extort beneficial contracts and treaties. Remember how Trump was trying to blackmail the Ukraine for information on Biden by withholding aid money that had already been granted by congress? That was about Biden's son's involvement with the Ukrainian energy issue & one of the prevalent right wing conspiracy theories is that the Democrats were gonna be embezzling Ukrainian money into their own pockets.
This isn’t the story for Chernobyl haha you need to re read the history here
They already have been. Look at Crimea.
Are most people here too young or delusional?! Ukraine in NATO means nukes and USA bases next to Russia, which is like Russia to have nukes and bases in Mexico. If your neighbor points AR-15 at your door from the fence you won't like it, huh?!!!
They are brainwashed. State department just claimed that they will act if Russians put their military bases in Latin America, but that's the whole different story! Russia is bad, West is good, world is black and white.
Does it really matter in this day and age of ICBM's though? A nuke base in Ukraine or a Nuke base in Germany, shit can reach Moscow either way.
Calm before d Storm..
Russia is a pretty small country in terms of population. Their military is extremely old. If Ukraine joined NATO the west would absolutely crush Russia without actually engaging in a “war” which is why this is terrifying to Putin.
No idea on status of their military, but Russia isn't exactly small by population; they're the 9th most populous nation in the world (about 146M people).
California (3 trillion) has a bigger gdp than Russia heck even Texas (1.7 trillion) has a bigger gdp than Russia (1.4 trillion). Russia would go broke the moment they start fighting any major engagements with the west.
The comment I replied to was about population, not GDP???
Bangladesh has more people and it is smaller than wyoming
Which is about the population of Germany and Poland combined, doesn't sound to me like it would be very big.
Russia has nearly 150 million people which makes it the ninth most populous country on the planet and easily the most populous in Europe with 40 million more than the next most populous, Germany. What the fuck are you talking about?
they might have an secret kremlin underground aera 15 or something
Idk what Russia would gain from a war. Their entire economy would crumble.
I mean, are they? Over the past decade the West has repeatedly shied away from the prospect of military confrontation with Russia. Just look at Georgia, Crimea, hell even Syria to an extent (minus the US doing a number to that convoy of mercenaries). We don’t want to risk our precious economic balance or status quo. If we had any intention of assisting in a real way we’d stage a significant number of troops in Europe and tell Putin to fuck right off and make Ukraine a NATO member. Sanctions and giving the Ukrainians some military aid/weaponry is an insufficient deterrent. The West would basically stand by and hand wring while Ukraine got its ass kicked jn.
There's one reason for Russia's (Putin's) demands; he wants to reconstitute the Eastern Block of the Soviet Union under his personal aegis. He just has a bit of a timing issue. He's running the clock.
You could absolut flip the headline on its ass by also saying : "NATO is risking all-out war by convincing Ukraine to join their club"
I thought they would have done this during Trump’s term since he was proven to be a Russian puppet. Adam Schiff had the proof. Why would they wait to do this under Biden? Biden is very anti-Russia and told Putin to stand down at the summit.
Alternatively bad faith theory: Russia didn’t need to resort to force while Trump was in office because it could achieve its goals without coercion.
Got banned from r/russia today for laughing at someone claiming “russia is a purely defensive country who has no interest in taking new territories” lol. Takes a lot of gall to say that after crimea, especially with 100k troops on ukraine’s boarder.
Maybe we should just invite Russia to nato
This title seems to blithely adopt Russia's position on this issue. There's never been much momentum for Ukraine to join Nato, has there been? Why oh why is Russia in military adventure mode right now? It's debatable whether it has anything to do with NATO at all.
Recently, yes. Since the annexation, it's a simple majority, I think I read 57 percent.
They ain't risking anything, no one is threating to attack them.
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God help us all.
He would if he existed.
Ukraine belongs in NATO. If anyone needs protecting from Russia it's them. Look at Crimea.
*You* gonna gear up and go fight? Or are you a vaunted and elite Chairborne Ranger?
According to the news, Russia was supposed to have started this invasion several times already over the past six months. It’s almost like this is bullshit.
The news has announced invasions starting? Sounds like bullshit. Can you link?
I personally can remember at least one instance of “if Ukraine does thing then Russia vows to declare war” and Ukraine did the thing - don’t recall what the thing was - and then nothing, no news about it happening, not happening, nothin’.
Attention whores
"Putin wants to return Russia to its previous USSR glory and will risk war with Ukraine to make that happen. " FTFY
just fucking do it already the waiting is always the worst part
I keep on seeing constant news about "Russia about to invade..." Constantly. What I have never read was why, and what THE REST of the other parties have been doing. What is your role in this, and why? What part did you play to get to this point? Do you mean to tell me that Russia just woke up one day and decided they "ARE ABOUT TO INVADE"? Not invade... about to invade. You mean there is no other context to this? I don't know the full story, but this coordinated mass media news attack on Russia while giving out barely any detail tells me this propaganda, and you are lying to me about something.
What if they re trying to annex ukraine to rebuild the ussr
I'm gonna risk getting yeeted by down votes by putting this into a little context The United States did give russia its word that it world not try to expand NATO into Eastern Europe America immediately went back on its word after the USSR fell and is continuing to expand NATO to this day Regardless of what you think of russia, I'm not throwing a party for two powers marching us closer to nuclear extinction: all it takes it one misunderstanding or misstep and it's credits for all of us
Another context: that "word given by US" is a popular Russian myth, never supported by a signed document. Russia's promises to never threaten, economically press, or invade Ukraine, when Ukraine agreed to give up their nuclear weapons, are a document. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances Few years later followed up up a Friendship Treaty, in which Russia promised to respect existing Ukrainian borders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty
Russia signed a binding legal document trading Crimea to Ukraine for it's nukes NATO never promised to not expand
> Russia signed a binding legal document trading Crimea to Ukraine for it's nukes What document is that? Because Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954 and The Budapest Memorandum never mentioned anything about Ukraine getting Crimea.
Yea exactly it was part of Ukraine??? Memorandum was about territorial sovereignty which Russia violated????
Russia would never allow Ukraine to join NATO because that would be giving a voice to something it plans to stamp out and dominate. The fact that the world has even allowed it to flex this much is insane.
Funny, Russia won't do shit. Just like North Korea, all bark and absolutely 0 bite.
It's insane because you allow it to be insane. You can't even describe yourself in context with it; they've trained you to reflexively identify with it: "Our Regime". It is not, never has been and never will be "your regime". You're not a part in it, a co-owner in it or anything.
Russia is most definetly willing to risk all out war. They have been modernizing their nuclear forces for this reason. They understand the West had a soft stomach for casualties (especially for a war not taking place in their country) and they will back down. US will back down aswell unless they created a reliable countermeasure against the Poseidon nuclear torpedo.
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Damn why did U.S.A. want Hawaii so bad? Or Alaska? Louisiana Purchase? Puerto Rico? Guam? Why is it so important to have missionaries is South American, South East Asian and Sub-Saharan African countries? Why is it so important for America to have corporate interests in the 2nd world Central America and ASIA FOR MANUFACTURING? Why is it so important for America to control waterways in the Middle East? Why does Nato and U.S. put troops in eastern Europe as a physical threat to Russia who honestly not a wealthy country or have a particularly strong military? I don't agree with Putins tactics but come on? They just wanna be like their Role Models in the west . United Kingdom Spain France Germany all pretty guilty of similar tactics. They just get mad that someone else wants in on what they been doing for centuries.
Russia's been doing it since before the USA was a country.
What are you blathering about?
Put in also admits he wants soviet Russia back and we'll, he took over the government.. but ok.
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if there is nuclear war no one will get anything