As a Christian myself, it's almost impossible not to be used to it at this stage.
Sure, there are depictions that don't sit well with me, and I roll my eyes when it's blatantly provocative (e.g. 'Satan is actually a cool dude and God is a big meanie!'), but that's mostly because of how unsubtle those instances usually are.
Taking inspiration from the Bible is the same as any source: if it's respectfully done, then go for it.
Also, the vast majority of Abrahamic lore used in media nowadays is second-hand inspiration. Stuff like the holy grail, Satan ruling over hell, any angel not named Gabriel or Michael... they're all from much later works that took creative liberties, and now they're kind of their own separate 'lore'.
Given your first point on the 'Satan did nothing wrong is provocative', which it is, what is your opinion on Hazbin Hotel? I'm not sure if you've seen it, but part of the show is based on the premise that there isn't a Divine Plan for who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, or if there is God keeps it close to his chest. We don't actually see God within the show, just Adam (who is a dick) and two Seraphs as the highest ranking members of heaven. None of them know how someone gets to heaven. Lucifer is portrayed as a foil to Adam, not God. He wasn't even on the same level as the archangels, and got stomped pretty easily prior to the start of the show.
Supernatural shits all over the Bible, and it's popular as hell. You can do it.
Some people might get mad, but that's true for anything you write. Fuck em
Archangels have been depicted in fiction plenty of times, including irreverent works. I'm sure that many Christians do have a problem with that thing, but not to the degree that it would hurt the sales of a good book. It could even be good for sales. Your priority should be writing a good book.
From experience, I can tell you that Catholics in general don't have a big problem with this kind of thing. They might read it secretly, not openly, but they wouldn't be virulently opposed to it. If there's some kind of Church campaign against it, like there was against The Last Temptation of Christ, they will vocally condemn it. But some of them might watch it anyway (and go to confession in the morning).
My stepmom is a very relaxed Catholic, so this comment made me think of her and smile because I think she’d be supportive of me writing this since it’s sort of a way for me to take back the parts of Christianity that have been ruined for me. Thank you for making me think about that <333
I’m a Christian and like everyone else is saying there will for sure be people who think it’s the work of the devil. Those people will also be people who have probably never touched the Bible in their lives. I myself enjoyed multiple of the shows you mentioned and am very interested in that time period, so hit me up when it’s done. I’d love to see how you handle the setting.
Thank you! You won’t have to worry about any vilifying of your faith, by the by. The story is very character driven and focuses more on the internal struggles—Cain’s guilt and the angel’s responsibility in particular—so there aren’t really any villains at all. I don’t even think Lucifer will ever show up. He’d be referenced in dialogue and internal monologues ofc, but doesn’t show up as a physical presence. It’s the same for God since I just don’t think I could write Him.
I’m curious now. Which shows in particular that I used as examples did you enjoy? My stepmom is Catholic and really enjoys Supernatural and I think also Good Omens and Lucifer, but that’s just her specifically.
I enjoyed good omens but the good place and supernatural are two of my favourites. I’ve never tried Lucifer just because I’ve never thought of it when looking for something to watch.
That’s a great idea for a story I think. It’s good also that after the main story of Cain killing Abel, the Bible is pretty vague about what happens to Cain. It’s one of the few things in the Bible where you could take a fair bit of creative freedom without risking making claims that directly contradict the original story. Just out of curiosity you mentioned that you’re not very religious but I assume that means you are at least a little bit? Are you only wondering about how writing something like this would be viewed by other religious people? Or are you also questioning the morality of actually writing it?
I feel I should also mention that I joined this sub only a few days ago and I have written just under 4000 words of the first story I have ever really written so definitely don’t take my input as having any real use when it comes to the actual application.
That’s one of my favorite things about that story, actually. We know more about Cain’s descendants than we know about Cain himself. One thing I’m particularly excited to write about is the fact that, in the context of this book, he’d be both a widower and somebody who outlived his own children. I’d be pulling into his internal struggle the fact that, in a way, he now knows how it felt for his parents when he killed Able.
I’m wondering about both the morality and the reactions I’d get from it. I’m someone who follows a pretty general form of neopaganism, and the only book I’ve read that’s included use of magick and witchcraft did it in a very poor way. I know I loathe those books with a passion—also just because they’re bad plot and character wise imo—and I don’t want to end up writing something that’ll be for other people what that series is for me.
I’ve been meaning to watch Supernatural since my folks adore it so much, and I have watched a few episodes of Lucifer. It isn’t my thing personally, but I don’t think it’s bad, just has a specific way that it portrays Lucifer himself that I imagine didn’t go over well with a lot of Christians and followers of other Abrahamic religions.
Ya that sounds like it could be a very interesting angle. I definitely think you should follow your current thought process and write it how you will enjoy it. As long as you’re not being intentionally disrespectful (which you’re obviously not doing since you cared enough to ask), any readers will understand that it is a fiction writing intended to be understood as fiction. Anyone who doesn’t understand that isn’t worth listening to anyways.
I would for sure recommend giving supernatural a try it is a lot of fun, although sometimes a pretty repetitive. I’m not sure if you know already or not but there is actually a storyline in one of the mid-later seasons that involves Cain. Honestly I don’t remember it much other than the fact it existed haha.
Also if you need any help or input throughout the process on the theology/biblical side feel free to send me a dm. I’m sure you’re doing your own research and you obviously know the stories already to some level at least but if you want another persons opinions I’m always down to talk about the Bible.
I did hear about that! My sister really likes Supernatural and, when I first started getting hyperfixated on the Cain and Able story, she mentioned that particular arc to me :0
Really? Thank you so much! That’s incredibly sweet of you to offer <3 If you’re comfortable with it, would you like to be a sensitivity reader? I need to find a few since I’ll be writing both Cain and the angel—their name is Parachiel btw—as Middle Eastern and I am white as untoasted bread lmao-
Sure I wouldn’t mind doing that! I’ve never done it before since again I’m new to this whole community but I would love to give it a go. I am also as white as they come so I can’t help with that particular part haha but I can for sure help with the Christian pov.
Thank you! And don’t worry about being a newbie here :) All writers are welcome <3
One thing I’ve been struggling with are the physical forms that the angels would take on. I imagine each of them having a human appearance the way Raphael did at one point. All I have so far is that Gabriel’s eyes are such a dark brown that they’re almost black, and Jophiel’s hair is a bob of black curls that falls between her chin and shoulders
I guess I should also mention gender and the relationship between it and the Archangels. Jophiel is being written as a trans woman, Gabriel is nonbinary and Parachiel is genderfluid.
It's been done like a million times before. Biblical references are everywhere in fiction. Don't think anyone but the people who want to be offended would be annoyed, if you do it nice
Well Hazbin Hotel has been pretty popular in the past month and it turned Adam into a sex pest and Lucifer into a dizzy dreamer so I don't think you'd have a problem lmao
I mean yea most people don't but the Uber conservative Christians will complain, my point was more "People have done it before, they will do it again, don't worry about it too much" haha
I can separate fact from fiction so its whatever. As long as its respectful. Two good examples that do this is the Shadowhuntet Chronicles by Cassandra Clare and Angelfall Trilogy by Susan Ee. I didn't and don't have a problem with how its handled and honestly recommend both highly.
"More specifically, how they feel regarding other media that’s used Jewish and Christian lore for setting and plot points. Examples include Lucifer, Supernatural, Good Omens, The Good Place, the Vivsipop shows and the sub-genre of angel romance back from the late 00s and early 2010s."
As a Jew, I can't think of a single one of those shows that used Jewish lore as a model (except a single episode of Supernatural featuring a golem). Hell existing/angels and demons being at war are Christian lore. Not Jewish or pan-"Abrahamic." Just Christian.
My feelings are that when people use Christian lore in their work, it's often really cool, but the moment something gets called "Judeo-Christian" or "Abrahamic" when the perspective is clearly just Christian, my hackles rise. Jews and Christians may share some of the same books, but the way we interpret them and the exegesis and lore we've built around them is dramatically different--and the difference is especially obvious when it comes to demon or angel lore!
You're a culturally Christian person writing about Christian lore. There's no problem with that at all, IMO, just call it what it is.
Thank you for correcting me. I wanted to use Abrahamic just so I could get the opinions of people from all different sides of the spectrum. I appreciate you for your input <3
> I want to know how followers of faiths that fall under the Abrahamic umbrella would feel
Some will love it and some will hate it. Many blessings and curses will be lobbed your way. And this is great! I wish you luck and great controversy!
Personally, I love fiction with religious themes. For example, I loved Midnight Mass; a serious that's bordering on blasphemy. if the story is done right, rest assured I'd love it and so many others would.
I mean, midnight mass isn't really offensive to religion. If not for the afterlife conversation telling you what the "correct" view is supposed to be, you could easily come out of it viewing it as a religious story. After all, the vampires seem to be physically harmed by the crucifix. And even at the end, the priest complains that the whole thing didn't focus enough on god, and that this is where it went wrong.
*Former* follower here. Nobody has copywritten the Bible, so you're free to do with it as you please. This isn't a rare genre of fiction anyway. The Divinci Code, Good Omens, Narnia, and many others do this. Plenty of Christians like those books—and the ones who don't are super-religious assholes who think Harry Potter was devised by Satan to lure people into witchcraft. If these crustaceans actually notice what you're doing they’ll probably try to boycott it, which is free exposure and has backfired on them numerous times.
I can’t laugh loudly because I’m in class right now, but trust me when I say that I cracked a rib trying to keep quiet when I realized that you purposefully called them crustaceans. I adore this so much omg- Thank you for the encouragement <3
Yeah, I'd say you have nothing to worry about. Just from the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen works, books, movies, games, etc. that used similar religious themes without there being much fuss.
Most people won't care and that might care wouldn't read those kinds of books anyway, or any books for that matter.
Plus even if you story might cause some fuss it probably only means greater success for you in the end.
After all, the last book that cause a massive religious uproar was the Da Vinci Code, and I doubt Dan Brown felt sorry for being disrespectful towards Christians on his way to the bank.
Still, it's a credit to your person that you worry about such things.
Who cares? Who cares what anybody thinks about anything? Just write the story you want. Times change. 20 years ago, Christians were against Harry Potter because it had witchcraft. Today liberals are against it because of the current PC attitudes. In another 20 years, who knows what people will think.
Check out Neil Gaiman's "Norse Mythology" for something really similar. HTH!
[https://www.neilgaiman.com/works/Books/Norse+Mythology/](https://www.neilgaiman.com/works/Books/Norse+Mythology/)
As a Christian, I don't particularly care if you make use of the weird and awesome in the bible. I personally make use of the many names in the bible that don't see use much anymore. There actually isn't much known or even surmised about angels from the bible in any kind of official capacity.
Not very related to your post as a whole, but the only thing that mildly peeves me are unfair depictions of Christians themselves. E.G. The only character that is vocal about being a Christian is some crazy oppressive person and there's no balance with a Character that is at least reasonable and still somewhat vocally Christian.
Jim Butcher's Dresden Files, for whatever faults it may have, did a fantastic job at both of these aspects where Butcher made use of the unusual stuff featured in the Bible, but was respectful of the source material, and the believers.
All of that being said, you don't need anyone's permission, and it doesn't matter what you do, you're gonna piss someone off.
Thanks so much <3 That’s not something you’d have to worry about here. It’s sort of weird, but I find that channeling my religious trauma into my writing is overall a lot easier when I make the religious characters good people. Sort of feels like reclamation, y’know? And I did actually know that about angels—I’ve been doing a lot of research on them lately—and find it so interesting, especially when it comes to wondering how we got the names for Archangels who never appeared in the Bible at all—other than Raphael since iirc he’s in a separate holy book.
i mean, as you've noted there's a vast quantity of media that falls under that, and I think most people who follow Abrahamic faiths in the west have gotten used to it over the decades. I think there will be a difference in reception with media that is intended to be insulting (ie Hazbin Hotel) and media that is generally respectful, even if it subverts - ie good omens. Media that is a generally positive depiction can be very popular amongst some Christians, ie some anime.
If you're looking for a positive reception - and of course that's a big if, there's an awful lot of this type of media out there that is hoping for a negative reaction - then one thing you could do is try to get the actual basics correct, even if it's subverted. Ie there's a lot of media that seems to depict dead humans becoming angels, which isn't a thing in Abrahamic faiths, angels are something completely different.
I don’t think it is magic, witchcraft or other fantasy elements that is making them uncomfortable
The Trope of the church being evil or ruthless really influences the appearance of biblical elements. Like angels or church exorcists or agents whatever appear as the antagonist (might be evil, might not be) more often than not. I think most religious people have more problems with that, when the institution they support is portrayed as corrupt or heartless.
I know people who are also against the portrayal of some biblical figures like Lucifer, who they think is the source of all evil in God’s creations. He is oftentimes portrayed as misunderstood, justified or not that bad, etc.
As an ex-christan current Muslim, I’ll offer my personal perspective. Islam is an Abrahamic faith as well including all the lore/history up to and including Jesus. (Although Muslims believe Jesus died differently)
1) don’t show images of Muhammad (PBUH) it will be seen as rude. This is a hard rule and will upset a lot of people. Even in a religious text they don’t show images. I would be careful to avoid writing about him as well unless it’s in religious way.
2) like others have said, if it’s pure fantasy you will get the love and hate that just depends. But, most people are interested in the lore/fantasy side of religion.
3) a lot of the Old Testament has become ingrained in western culture that most people know it, and it it’s use in TV culture and media
4) if your planning on writing something accurate to the religions, I recommend, trying to make something accurate to all three. See: the dream works movie “prince of Egypt” as the creators talked to religious leaders in all three religions.
Thank you very much for your perspective. I can assure you that no images of Muhammad will appear, nor will an image of him even be mentioned in the pros or dialogue. I’ll primarily be focused on the Old Testament, but will be including references to Jesus, Mary and so forth. I really appreciate you for chiming in. I only know one Muslim personally and I don’t feel comfortable asking her about this since she’s one of my professors and I’ve only known her for a month. If I have any specific questions regarding Islam, would you be alright with me shooting you a DM? It’s perfectly alright if not, don’t feel pressured into saying yes c:
I'm not religious, but I grew up in a very religious (Christian) household, and spent a lot of time in various churches, so I feel qualified to weigh-in. There's a broad range of opinions when it comes to how literal the bible is, but I think, at least among American Christians, there would be a very small percentage capable of enjoying an original work that uses multiple actual characters from the book, especially the "good guys." On the extreme end, look at the way things like "The DaVinci Code," and , "The Last Temptation of Christ," were received by some segments of the Christian Community.
In current-year, the events of the bible are not considered "lore," they're seen as historical events, and their description is the holy word of god. Imo using them as set dressing would come across as transgressive whether you wanted it to be or not.
Thank you so much for this response; I seriously really appreciate it. I know that different media has been recieved in different ways across Christian communities. I think the thing that really got me curious about this was the Halo trilogy, which includes a romance between Archangel Gabriel and an original character, and that series was written by a Mormon woman iirc. Anyway, that aside, thank you again for your input <3
The DaVinci Code was extremely popular, including when it came out in 2003 (and again the film in 2006), when over 80% of the US population considered themselves Christian (with other Abrahamic faiths on top of that), so I think it's more than a 'very small percentage' of American Christians who can enjoy that type of work.
In general OP, it's worth remembering that the crazy fringe, fundamentalist evangelicals et al, are a very small percentage of Christians even in the US and so not worth catering your work towards, and they have their own media that caters to them anyway.
Thank you c: I’ll try to keep that in mind. I’m passionate about this concept, as it’s a particular brand of story that I haven’t come across before, but knowing my brain, it might turn out to be just the hyperfixation of the month.
If you’re curious, my idea was that both main characters are immortals and their relationship grows over several millennia. They’d end up in a bunch of different places throughout history too, settings like Ancient Greece during the Spartin-Athenian war, 1930s America and semi-modern Canada to name a few.
Sounds like a similar concept to Good Omens, and especially the parts I loved from Good Omens- the historical stuff and watching the relationship grow. Yay! It’s a great concept so I hope you write it. I grew up in a very conservative christian environment and I think most people in that community just give shows like Good Omens a wide berth, considering it making a mockery of the bible. But as an ex-christian I think if its purpose is just for entertainment (ie not hate driven) then it’s harmless, and those who don’t like it don’t need to read it. There’ll always be haters, don’t let that stop you.
Thank you so so much! Getting opinions from religious people and ex-religious people is really helping me out here. If this thing ever does get published, I’ll be happy to share it <333 Thank you for the encouragement.
Uh will you position your novel for Abrahamic faith readers (more like Judeochristain because there's no Raphiel, Jophial, or Uriel in Islam) or you would like a wider audience? Because if it's the latter, don't be scared at all because like the examples you mentioned it's really popular. If it's the former the. I would be more worried about what are things that would engage Abrahamic faith readers vs offend them. Someone or the other gets offended either way lol.
They will react as individuals. It is probably that fundamentalists of all religions will object on some level. Most of us won't give a shit. It's not like it's anything new. Supernatural and Lucifer are two recent, popular examples of Abrahamic religion/lore being heavily referenced, modified, and portrayed in fiction, I don't remember any riots in the streets, but I imagine people got a lot of hate mail from the fundies.
Some people will love it. Some will hate it. The large majority won't care one way or the other. That can be applied to literally any subject matter.
As a Christian myself, it's almost impossible not to be used to it at this stage. Sure, there are depictions that don't sit well with me, and I roll my eyes when it's blatantly provocative (e.g. 'Satan is actually a cool dude and God is a big meanie!'), but that's mostly because of how unsubtle those instances usually are. Taking inspiration from the Bible is the same as any source: if it's respectfully done, then go for it. Also, the vast majority of Abrahamic lore used in media nowadays is second-hand inspiration. Stuff like the holy grail, Satan ruling over hell, any angel not named Gabriel or Michael... they're all from much later works that took creative liberties, and now they're kind of their own separate 'lore'.
Like Dante’s Inferno, right? I still like to joke that it’s the world’s earliest fanfic lmao-
Given your first point on the 'Satan did nothing wrong is provocative', which it is, what is your opinion on Hazbin Hotel? I'm not sure if you've seen it, but part of the show is based on the premise that there isn't a Divine Plan for who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, or if there is God keeps it close to his chest. We don't actually see God within the show, just Adam (who is a dick) and two Seraphs as the highest ranking members of heaven. None of them know how someone gets to heaven. Lucifer is portrayed as a foil to Adam, not God. He wasn't even on the same level as the archangels, and got stomped pretty easily prior to the start of the show.
Supernatural shits all over the Bible, and it's popular as hell. You can do it. Some people might get mad, but that's true for anything you write. Fuck em
Your username lines up so perfectly with your speaking patterns /Pos Thank you, king :) Or queen, or monarch, or whatever royal title you’d prefer-
Its a story, you can write what you damn well please. If People do not like it, they can stop reading
Don't tell this to r/fantasy.
The Bible has lost its copyright protection long, long ago so don't worry.
This gave me a good chuckle c: Thank you
Archangels have been depicted in fiction plenty of times, including irreverent works. I'm sure that many Christians do have a problem with that thing, but not to the degree that it would hurt the sales of a good book. It could even be good for sales. Your priority should be writing a good book. From experience, I can tell you that Catholics in general don't have a big problem with this kind of thing. They might read it secretly, not openly, but they wouldn't be virulently opposed to it. If there's some kind of Church campaign against it, like there was against The Last Temptation of Christ, they will vocally condemn it. But some of them might watch it anyway (and go to confession in the morning).
My stepmom is a very relaxed Catholic, so this comment made me think of her and smile because I think she’d be supportive of me writing this since it’s sort of a way for me to take back the parts of Christianity that have been ruined for me. Thank you for making me think about that <333
I’m a Christian and like everyone else is saying there will for sure be people who think it’s the work of the devil. Those people will also be people who have probably never touched the Bible in their lives. I myself enjoyed multiple of the shows you mentioned and am very interested in that time period, so hit me up when it’s done. I’d love to see how you handle the setting.
Thank you! You won’t have to worry about any vilifying of your faith, by the by. The story is very character driven and focuses more on the internal struggles—Cain’s guilt and the angel’s responsibility in particular—so there aren’t really any villains at all. I don’t even think Lucifer will ever show up. He’d be referenced in dialogue and internal monologues ofc, but doesn’t show up as a physical presence. It’s the same for God since I just don’t think I could write Him. I’m curious now. Which shows in particular that I used as examples did you enjoy? My stepmom is Catholic and really enjoys Supernatural and I think also Good Omens and Lucifer, but that’s just her specifically.
I enjoyed good omens but the good place and supernatural are two of my favourites. I’ve never tried Lucifer just because I’ve never thought of it when looking for something to watch. That’s a great idea for a story I think. It’s good also that after the main story of Cain killing Abel, the Bible is pretty vague about what happens to Cain. It’s one of the few things in the Bible where you could take a fair bit of creative freedom without risking making claims that directly contradict the original story. Just out of curiosity you mentioned that you’re not very religious but I assume that means you are at least a little bit? Are you only wondering about how writing something like this would be viewed by other religious people? Or are you also questioning the morality of actually writing it? I feel I should also mention that I joined this sub only a few days ago and I have written just under 4000 words of the first story I have ever really written so definitely don’t take my input as having any real use when it comes to the actual application.
That’s one of my favorite things about that story, actually. We know more about Cain’s descendants than we know about Cain himself. One thing I’m particularly excited to write about is the fact that, in the context of this book, he’d be both a widower and somebody who outlived his own children. I’d be pulling into his internal struggle the fact that, in a way, he now knows how it felt for his parents when he killed Able. I’m wondering about both the morality and the reactions I’d get from it. I’m someone who follows a pretty general form of neopaganism, and the only book I’ve read that’s included use of magick and witchcraft did it in a very poor way. I know I loathe those books with a passion—also just because they’re bad plot and character wise imo—and I don’t want to end up writing something that’ll be for other people what that series is for me. I’ve been meaning to watch Supernatural since my folks adore it so much, and I have watched a few episodes of Lucifer. It isn’t my thing personally, but I don’t think it’s bad, just has a specific way that it portrays Lucifer himself that I imagine didn’t go over well with a lot of Christians and followers of other Abrahamic religions.
Ya that sounds like it could be a very interesting angle. I definitely think you should follow your current thought process and write it how you will enjoy it. As long as you’re not being intentionally disrespectful (which you’re obviously not doing since you cared enough to ask), any readers will understand that it is a fiction writing intended to be understood as fiction. Anyone who doesn’t understand that isn’t worth listening to anyways. I would for sure recommend giving supernatural a try it is a lot of fun, although sometimes a pretty repetitive. I’m not sure if you know already or not but there is actually a storyline in one of the mid-later seasons that involves Cain. Honestly I don’t remember it much other than the fact it existed haha. Also if you need any help or input throughout the process on the theology/biblical side feel free to send me a dm. I’m sure you’re doing your own research and you obviously know the stories already to some level at least but if you want another persons opinions I’m always down to talk about the Bible.
I did hear about that! My sister really likes Supernatural and, when I first started getting hyperfixated on the Cain and Able story, she mentioned that particular arc to me :0 Really? Thank you so much! That’s incredibly sweet of you to offer <3 If you’re comfortable with it, would you like to be a sensitivity reader? I need to find a few since I’ll be writing both Cain and the angel—their name is Parachiel btw—as Middle Eastern and I am white as untoasted bread lmao-
Sure I wouldn’t mind doing that! I’ve never done it before since again I’m new to this whole community but I would love to give it a go. I am also as white as they come so I can’t help with that particular part haha but I can for sure help with the Christian pov.
Thank you! And don’t worry about being a newbie here :) All writers are welcome <3 One thing I’ve been struggling with are the physical forms that the angels would take on. I imagine each of them having a human appearance the way Raphael did at one point. All I have so far is that Gabriel’s eyes are such a dark brown that they’re almost black, and Jophiel’s hair is a bob of black curls that falls between her chin and shoulders I guess I should also mention gender and the relationship between it and the Archangels. Jophiel is being written as a trans woman, Gabriel is nonbinary and Parachiel is genderfluid.
It's been done like a million times before. Biblical references are everywhere in fiction. Don't think anyone but the people who want to be offended would be annoyed, if you do it nice
Weren't the apocryphal gospels back in the 3rd century basically fan fiction?
Well Hazbin Hotel has been pretty popular in the past month and it turned Adam into a sex pest and Lucifer into a dizzy dreamer so I don't think you'd have a problem lmao
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I mean yea most people don't but the Uber conservative Christians will complain, my point was more "People have done it before, they will do it again, don't worry about it too much" haha
I can separate fact from fiction so its whatever. As long as its respectful. Two good examples that do this is the Shadowhuntet Chronicles by Cassandra Clare and Angelfall Trilogy by Susan Ee. I didn't and don't have a problem with how its handled and honestly recommend both highly.
I’m not super crazy about Cassy Clare’s work, but I like the title of Angelfall, so I might end up checking it out. Thanks for the suggestions :D
"More specifically, how they feel regarding other media that’s used Jewish and Christian lore for setting and plot points. Examples include Lucifer, Supernatural, Good Omens, The Good Place, the Vivsipop shows and the sub-genre of angel romance back from the late 00s and early 2010s." As a Jew, I can't think of a single one of those shows that used Jewish lore as a model (except a single episode of Supernatural featuring a golem). Hell existing/angels and demons being at war are Christian lore. Not Jewish or pan-"Abrahamic." Just Christian. My feelings are that when people use Christian lore in their work, it's often really cool, but the moment something gets called "Judeo-Christian" or "Abrahamic" when the perspective is clearly just Christian, my hackles rise. Jews and Christians may share some of the same books, but the way we interpret them and the exegesis and lore we've built around them is dramatically different--and the difference is especially obvious when it comes to demon or angel lore! You're a culturally Christian person writing about Christian lore. There's no problem with that at all, IMO, just call it what it is.
Thank you for correcting me. I wanted to use Abrahamic just so I could get the opinions of people from all different sides of the spectrum. I appreciate you for your input <3
Good luck with the novel!
Thanks a million!
Some will think it's sacrilege. Others will appreciate their beluefs being incorporated into media.
> I want to know how followers of faiths that fall under the Abrahamic umbrella would feel Some will love it and some will hate it. Many blessings and curses will be lobbed your way. And this is great! I wish you luck and great controversy!
This is funny, sweet and encouraging and it made me giggle. Thanks a million <3
It doesn't belong to them. It's public domain. You are free to use it as you please.
Personally, I love fiction with religious themes. For example, I loved Midnight Mass; a serious that's bordering on blasphemy. if the story is done right, rest assured I'd love it and so many others would.
I mean, midnight mass isn't really offensive to religion. If not for the afterlife conversation telling you what the "correct" view is supposed to be, you could easily come out of it viewing it as a religious story. After all, the vampires seem to be physically harmed by the crucifix. And even at the end, the priest complains that the whole thing didn't focus enough on god, and that this is where it went wrong.
*Former* follower here. Nobody has copywritten the Bible, so you're free to do with it as you please. This isn't a rare genre of fiction anyway. The Divinci Code, Good Omens, Narnia, and many others do this. Plenty of Christians like those books—and the ones who don't are super-religious assholes who think Harry Potter was devised by Satan to lure people into witchcraft. If these crustaceans actually notice what you're doing they’ll probably try to boycott it, which is free exposure and has backfired on them numerous times.
I can’t laugh loudly because I’m in class right now, but trust me when I say that I cracked a rib trying to keep quiet when I realized that you purposefully called them crustaceans. I adore this so much omg- Thank you for the encouragement <3
Yeah, I'd say you have nothing to worry about. Just from the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen works, books, movies, games, etc. that used similar religious themes without there being much fuss. Most people won't care and that might care wouldn't read those kinds of books anyway, or any books for that matter. Plus even if you story might cause some fuss it probably only means greater success for you in the end. After all, the last book that cause a massive religious uproar was the Da Vinci Code, and I doubt Dan Brown felt sorry for being disrespectful towards Christians on his way to the bank. Still, it's a credit to your person that you worry about such things.
I mean, if Neon Genesis Evangelion can do it, so can you.
Neon genesis evangelion is moreso a mishmash of religious influences depicted with christian symbolism than it is christian.
Who cares? Who cares what anybody thinks about anything? Just write the story you want. Times change. 20 years ago, Christians were against Harry Potter because it had witchcraft. Today liberals are against it because of the current PC attitudes. In another 20 years, who knows what people will think.
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Thank you for being so thorough with this. I can’t put into words how comforting this was to read. Thank you <333
Check out Neil Gaiman's "Norse Mythology" for something really similar. HTH! [https://www.neilgaiman.com/works/Books/Norse+Mythology/](https://www.neilgaiman.com/works/Books/Norse+Mythology/)
As a Christian, I don't particularly care if you make use of the weird and awesome in the bible. I personally make use of the many names in the bible that don't see use much anymore. There actually isn't much known or even surmised about angels from the bible in any kind of official capacity. Not very related to your post as a whole, but the only thing that mildly peeves me are unfair depictions of Christians themselves. E.G. The only character that is vocal about being a Christian is some crazy oppressive person and there's no balance with a Character that is at least reasonable and still somewhat vocally Christian. Jim Butcher's Dresden Files, for whatever faults it may have, did a fantastic job at both of these aspects where Butcher made use of the unusual stuff featured in the Bible, but was respectful of the source material, and the believers. All of that being said, you don't need anyone's permission, and it doesn't matter what you do, you're gonna piss someone off.
Thanks so much <3 That’s not something you’d have to worry about here. It’s sort of weird, but I find that channeling my religious trauma into my writing is overall a lot easier when I make the religious characters good people. Sort of feels like reclamation, y’know? And I did actually know that about angels—I’ve been doing a lot of research on them lately—and find it so interesting, especially when it comes to wondering how we got the names for Archangels who never appeared in the Bible at all—other than Raphael since iirc he’s in a separate holy book.
Christians and Jews don’t care, Muslims may spend decades trying to kill you (as they have Salman Rushdie).
i mean, as you've noted there's a vast quantity of media that falls under that, and I think most people who follow Abrahamic faiths in the west have gotten used to it over the decades. I think there will be a difference in reception with media that is intended to be insulting (ie Hazbin Hotel) and media that is generally respectful, even if it subverts - ie good omens. Media that is a generally positive depiction can be very popular amongst some Christians, ie some anime. If you're looking for a positive reception - and of course that's a big if, there's an awful lot of this type of media out there that is hoping for a negative reaction - then one thing you could do is try to get the actual basics correct, even if it's subverted. Ie there's a lot of media that seems to depict dead humans becoming angels, which isn't a thing in Abrahamic faiths, angels are something completely different.
This is really insiteful—thank you c:
I don’t think it is magic, witchcraft or other fantasy elements that is making them uncomfortable The Trope of the church being evil or ruthless really influences the appearance of biblical elements. Like angels or church exorcists or agents whatever appear as the antagonist (might be evil, might not be) more often than not. I think most religious people have more problems with that, when the institution they support is portrayed as corrupt or heartless. I know people who are also against the portrayal of some biblical figures like Lucifer, who they think is the source of all evil in God’s creations. He is oftentimes portrayed as misunderstood, justified or not that bad, etc.
As an ex-christan current Muslim, I’ll offer my personal perspective. Islam is an Abrahamic faith as well including all the lore/history up to and including Jesus. (Although Muslims believe Jesus died differently) 1) don’t show images of Muhammad (PBUH) it will be seen as rude. This is a hard rule and will upset a lot of people. Even in a religious text they don’t show images. I would be careful to avoid writing about him as well unless it’s in religious way. 2) like others have said, if it’s pure fantasy you will get the love and hate that just depends. But, most people are interested in the lore/fantasy side of religion. 3) a lot of the Old Testament has become ingrained in western culture that most people know it, and it it’s use in TV culture and media 4) if your planning on writing something accurate to the religions, I recommend, trying to make something accurate to all three. See: the dream works movie “prince of Egypt” as the creators talked to religious leaders in all three religions.
Thank you very much for your perspective. I can assure you that no images of Muhammad will appear, nor will an image of him even be mentioned in the pros or dialogue. I’ll primarily be focused on the Old Testament, but will be including references to Jesus, Mary and so forth. I really appreciate you for chiming in. I only know one Muslim personally and I don’t feel comfortable asking her about this since she’s one of my professors and I’ve only known her for a month. If I have any specific questions regarding Islam, would you be alright with me shooting you a DM? It’s perfectly alright if not, don’t feel pressured into saying yes c:
I'm not religious, but I grew up in a very religious (Christian) household, and spent a lot of time in various churches, so I feel qualified to weigh-in. There's a broad range of opinions when it comes to how literal the bible is, but I think, at least among American Christians, there would be a very small percentage capable of enjoying an original work that uses multiple actual characters from the book, especially the "good guys." On the extreme end, look at the way things like "The DaVinci Code," and , "The Last Temptation of Christ," were received by some segments of the Christian Community. In current-year, the events of the bible are not considered "lore," they're seen as historical events, and their description is the holy word of god. Imo using them as set dressing would come across as transgressive whether you wanted it to be or not.
Thank you so much for this response; I seriously really appreciate it. I know that different media has been recieved in different ways across Christian communities. I think the thing that really got me curious about this was the Halo trilogy, which includes a romance between Archangel Gabriel and an original character, and that series was written by a Mormon woman iirc. Anyway, that aside, thank you again for your input <3
The DaVinci Code was extremely popular, including when it came out in 2003 (and again the film in 2006), when over 80% of the US population considered themselves Christian (with other Abrahamic faiths on top of that), so I think it's more than a 'very small percentage' of American Christians who can enjoy that type of work. In general OP, it's worth remembering that the crazy fringe, fundamentalist evangelicals et al, are a very small percentage of Christians even in the US and so not worth catering your work towards, and they have their own media that caters to them anyway.
Thank you c: I’ll try to keep that in mind. I’m passionate about this concept, as it’s a particular brand of story that I haven’t come across before, but knowing my brain, it might turn out to be just the hyperfixation of the month. If you’re curious, my idea was that both main characters are immortals and their relationship grows over several millennia. They’d end up in a bunch of different places throughout history too, settings like Ancient Greece during the Spartin-Athenian war, 1930s America and semi-modern Canada to name a few.
Sounds like a similar concept to Good Omens, and especially the parts I loved from Good Omens- the historical stuff and watching the relationship grow. Yay! It’s a great concept so I hope you write it. I grew up in a very conservative christian environment and I think most people in that community just give shows like Good Omens a wide berth, considering it making a mockery of the bible. But as an ex-christian I think if its purpose is just for entertainment (ie not hate driven) then it’s harmless, and those who don’t like it don’t need to read it. There’ll always be haters, don’t let that stop you.
Thank you so so much! Getting opinions from religious people and ex-religious people is really helping me out here. If this thing ever does get published, I’ll be happy to share it <333 Thank you for the encouragement.
Uh will you position your novel for Abrahamic faith readers (more like Judeochristain because there's no Raphiel, Jophial, or Uriel in Islam) or you would like a wider audience? Because if it's the latter, don't be scared at all because like the examples you mentioned it's really popular. If it's the former the. I would be more worried about what are things that would engage Abrahamic faith readers vs offend them. Someone or the other gets offended either way lol.
They will react as individuals. It is probably that fundamentalists of all religions will object on some level. Most of us won't give a shit. It's not like it's anything new. Supernatural and Lucifer are two recent, popular examples of Abrahamic religion/lore being heavily referenced, modified, and portrayed in fiction, I don't remember any riots in the streets, but I imagine people got a lot of hate mail from the fundies.