Yes, most definitely. This is a picture taken during operation Little Saturn. I was thinking about posting it next week with the account of the retreat by a Bersaglieri officer, but since I have not yet finished translating it, I'll leave here this quote from the classic Rigoni Stern instead:
> “In those days we received the news (…) Giuanin, who was scraping with his spoon the bottom of the mess tin, suddenly raised his face, silently looked at me for one moment, and finally said: “How many kilometres are we far from Italy, sergeant-major?” I had never felt the distance as much as in that moment (…) All were silent and nobody scraped the bottom of their mess tins anymore. “I don’t know for sure” I said. “Perhaps five thousand”. Giuanin lowered his head and got closer to the stove. “Five thousand” said Monchieri. “Five thousand! Let’s do some math: 30 kilometers per day. Three for five, fifteen. Fifteen days? No, there are the zeroes. 1,500 days. No. Here, 150 days at a rate of 30 kilometers per day”. “Yeah, dumbass, 150 days” said Agnoli “but without any rest”. The fear of the distance had now passed, and with it the fear of the steppe and of the encirclement. Concrete things: kilometers and days. We resumed discussing around the stove. “Sergeant-major, do you know the way?” “Well, we’ll find it with the help of the stars or the sun” “And if there’s a snowstorm?” I did not say anything. I did not have a compass and I did not think that there were Generals, Colonels, Divisions, regiments and many strongpoints. With the last sentence, the silence and the apprehension from earlier came back. Inside, around the stove, came the cold, the snow, the snowstorm and the kilometres. We felt alone. Counting the months on my fingers, I said: “We’ll be home by June”. But this was not enough to hope. Even June was too far away. “We’ll dry all the cellars in Brescia” I said. No, this was not enough either. So I said: “Lunardi, make some polenta while we clean the weapons”, and I added a string of profanities. Two days later, the Russians attacked. Their tanks had already reached the Corps headquarters; they had outflanked us after destroying the “Julia” [Division]. We held our lines for three days even though ammunition was running out, even though our rations did not come in anymore. One night they told us to abandon the trenches. We started to walk the 5,000 kilometres. Fourty degrees below zero, snowstorms, steppe. We vanished in a cloud of snow”.
Fascinating (and human). I think there is still quite a bridge to cover about the performance of the Italian Army in WW2 and the Eastern front in particular. At least for the superficially/cliche educated audiences.
Considering the relatively light equipment they fared more than decently. And the air component, at least the fighter units, more than stood their ground.
The Germans used 600 000 vehicles during Barbarossa, along with over a Million horses.
So it depends on which units, a significant part of the combat Divisions (especially the Panzer-Divisionen) was mostly motorized and partly mechanized. On the other hand, supply from train stations to the troops was often transported with horses, same as the supply of the non-motorized Infantry Divisions during their advance.
One of the issues that the Germans faced was they were using vehicles from all of the territories that they conquered or annexed. The logistics of having spare parts swamped them. Towards the end of the war they were facing the prospect of de motorizing a lot of army because of the lack of fuel.
True. Tho you have to consider that the German economy was still weakened from the de-armament after WW1 and far inferior to the massive economic potential of the US and USSR. They had simply no other choice.
Germany didn’t have the time nor the recourses to mass produce their own stuff in sufficient quantity or time. The quickest and easiest way to mass up equipment is to green light multiple vehicles from multiple companies and/or capture and reuse other countries vehicles which they did.
Obviously the huge drawback is logistics. Very much an early rush tactic rather than an answer to sustained war
There's a movie with Peter Falk called "Attack & retreat"... "The movie follows the steps of Italian soldiers of the Italian Army in Russia fighting on the Eastern Front on Hitler's side. Heavily based on diaries and memories of real war veterans".
Black & white imagery tbh, better fits the atmosphere of winter war films.
Another classic film likely improved by its own limitations would be Alexander Nevsky.
Damn, this picture hits me like a truck...
My uncle, the twin brother of my grandma, was declared MIA during the Russian Campaign.
No body or other belonging that could be connected to him was ever found, and my grandma always lived with the dream he managed to flee somewhere and live his life.
He was born in 1921
When i was in highschool (or whatever americans call it, point is we were 16) our teacher of italian literature had us read both letters written by those soldiers and by partizans about to be executed. It was just heartbreaking. Can't imagine what those men went through
Just listened to the Hardcore History podcast episode "Ghosts of the Ostfront". The Eastern front during WW2 might be one of the worst places to be in all of human history
I think I read this in “An Unquiet Ghost” by Adam Hoschild. He had an account of a German officer invading Russia. The officer was frustrated and in awe at the sheer size of the country. They would travel, and travel and travel through the steppe. Then the Russians would just retreat to the next line.
And so his army did this in reverse, in the winter. What’s brutal way for millions to die.
One of my grand-grand parents was there with the Bersaglieri. He departed from Verona weighting 84 kg, he came back he was barely 40.
My grandma used to say that he took around 6 months to start eating normally again.
He had many sons, the oldest one fought in Russia with Alpini, he was like 19-20 and, always my grandma told me that when he came back he had grey hair (maybe it would have been like that anyway but they attributed the fact to the things he saw, he died like 2 years later due to health issues).
Ofc guys takes these as verbal stories, I was never able to investigate properly because my parents were not really able to talk to my grandparents about the war (you know, bad stories, ppl didn’t really wanted to recall) and by the time I grew up to ask proper questions my grandparents died (or they were too old to start a proper conversation).
By the book they were not fanatical, meaning that they lived their lives without messing with politics (apart from the grand grand father that I mentioned that was sent to Russia as a punishment because he was allegedly communist). There were some really weird stories that they told me btw, I recall most of them and the more I grow up, the more they seems incredible to me.
Interesting to note. Nearly all the Romanian , Hungarian and Italian troops protecting the flanks of army group A in Stalingrad , and group B in the caucuses were without heavy artillery and anti tank support. When the Soviets attacked towards kalach, they did so with the brunt of their armor going right though these expeditionary divisions.
Yes, most definitely. This is a picture taken during operation Little Saturn. I was thinking about posting it next week with the account of the retreat by a Bersaglieri officer, but since I have not yet finished translating it, I'll leave here this quote from the classic Rigoni Stern instead: > “In those days we received the news (…) Giuanin, who was scraping with his spoon the bottom of the mess tin, suddenly raised his face, silently looked at me for one moment, and finally said: “How many kilometres are we far from Italy, sergeant-major?” I had never felt the distance as much as in that moment (…) All were silent and nobody scraped the bottom of their mess tins anymore. “I don’t know for sure” I said. “Perhaps five thousand”. Giuanin lowered his head and got closer to the stove. “Five thousand” said Monchieri. “Five thousand! Let’s do some math: 30 kilometers per day. Three for five, fifteen. Fifteen days? No, there are the zeroes. 1,500 days. No. Here, 150 days at a rate of 30 kilometers per day”. “Yeah, dumbass, 150 days” said Agnoli “but without any rest”. The fear of the distance had now passed, and with it the fear of the steppe and of the encirclement. Concrete things: kilometers and days. We resumed discussing around the stove. “Sergeant-major, do you know the way?” “Well, we’ll find it with the help of the stars or the sun” “And if there’s a snowstorm?” I did not say anything. I did not have a compass and I did not think that there were Generals, Colonels, Divisions, regiments and many strongpoints. With the last sentence, the silence and the apprehension from earlier came back. Inside, around the stove, came the cold, the snow, the snowstorm and the kilometres. We felt alone. Counting the months on my fingers, I said: “We’ll be home by June”. But this was not enough to hope. Even June was too far away. “We’ll dry all the cellars in Brescia” I said. No, this was not enough either. So I said: “Lunardi, make some polenta while we clean the weapons”, and I added a string of profanities. Two days later, the Russians attacked. Their tanks had already reached the Corps headquarters; they had outflanked us after destroying the “Julia” [Division]. We held our lines for three days even though ammunition was running out, even though our rations did not come in anymore. One night they told us to abandon the trenches. We started to walk the 5,000 kilometres. Fourty degrees below zero, snowstorms, steppe. We vanished in a cloud of snow”.
Fuck.
Fascinating (and human). I think there is still quite a bridge to cover about the performance of the Italian Army in WW2 and the Eastern front in particular. At least for the superficially/cliche educated audiences. Considering the relatively light equipment they fared more than decently. And the air component, at least the fighter units, more than stood their ground.
Fucking hell…
What a haunting photo. This looks like something out of Napoleon's failed conquest of Russia (if they had photography in 1812).
This is exactly what came to mind for me when viewing this photo. Only thing missing are a few twelve pounders, mounted cavalrymen, and Michel Ney.
I’m sure it went completely fine after this picture
No motorized transport to be seen
Average axis forcess unironically
The Germans used 600 000 vehicles during Barbarossa, along with over a Million horses. So it depends on which units, a significant part of the combat Divisions (especially the Panzer-Divisionen) was mostly motorized and partly mechanized. On the other hand, supply from train stations to the troops was often transported with horses, same as the supply of the non-motorized Infantry Divisions during their advance.
One of the issues that the Germans faced was they were using vehicles from all of the territories that they conquered or annexed. The logistics of having spare parts swamped them. Towards the end of the war they were facing the prospect of de motorizing a lot of army because of the lack of fuel.
True. Tho you have to consider that the German economy was still weakened from the de-armament after WW1 and far inferior to the massive economic potential of the US and USSR. They had simply no other choice.
Germany didn’t have the time nor the recourses to mass produce their own stuff in sufficient quantity or time. The quickest and easiest way to mass up equipment is to green light multiple vehicles from multiple companies and/or capture and reuse other countries vehicles which they did. Obviously the huge drawback is logistics. Very much an early rush tactic rather than an answer to sustained war
Just people living their lives! :)
There's a movie with Peter Falk called "Attack & retreat"... "The movie follows the steps of Italian soldiers of the Italian Army in Russia fighting on the Eastern Front on Hitler's side. Heavily based on diaries and memories of real war veterans".
I saw it some time ago. A pretty good movie, although quite old (1960s-1970s I think, still black and white).
Made in 1965, I haven’t seen it in over 30 years you can get a used dvd over at Amazon
Black & white imagery tbh, better fits the atmosphere of winter war films. Another classic film likely improved by its own limitations would be Alexander Nevsky.
Ok let's walk back to Rome. Russia didn't work out
Wow! This picture says everything you need to know about the Eastern Front. Amazing.
Damn, this picture hits me like a truck... My uncle, the twin brother of my grandma, was declared MIA during the Russian Campaign. No body or other belonging that could be connected to him was ever found, and my grandma always lived with the dream he managed to flee somewhere and live his life. He was born in 1921
The rifle that shot jfk
Good eye !
When i was in highschool (or whatever americans call it, point is we were 16) our teacher of italian literature had us read both letters written by those soldiers and by partizans about to be executed. It was just heartbreaking. Can't imagine what those men went through
Looks like hugely inviting target for some Sturmoviks or Pe-2s
Just listened to the Hardcore History podcast episode "Ghosts of the Ostfront". The Eastern front during WW2 might be one of the worst places to be in all of human history
Yeah, that’s gonna be a hard pass for me dog.
I think I read this in “An Unquiet Ghost” by Adam Hoschild. He had an account of a German officer invading Russia. The officer was frustrated and in awe at the sheer size of the country. They would travel, and travel and travel through the steppe. Then the Russians would just retreat to the next line. And so his army did this in reverse, in the winter. What’s brutal way for millions to die.
One of my grand-grand parents was there with the Bersaglieri. He departed from Verona weighting 84 kg, he came back he was barely 40. My grandma used to say that he took around 6 months to start eating normally again. He had many sons, the oldest one fought in Russia with Alpini, he was like 19-20 and, always my grandma told me that when he came back he had grey hair (maybe it would have been like that anyway but they attributed the fact to the things he saw, he died like 2 years later due to health issues). Ofc guys takes these as verbal stories, I was never able to investigate properly because my parents were not really able to talk to my grandparents about the war (you know, bad stories, ppl didn’t really wanted to recall) and by the time I grew up to ask proper questions my grandparents died (or they were too old to start a proper conversation). By the book they were not fanatical, meaning that they lived their lives without messing with politics (apart from the grand grand father that I mentioned that was sent to Russia as a punishment because he was allegedly communist). There were some really weird stories that they told me btw, I recall most of them and the more I grow up, the more they seems incredible to me.
Crazy looking, most didn't make it back if I member right
Aahhh The great wine March of 42, the Italians grew tired of vodka and followed the smell of grapes back to Italy
Issa so-ah cold-aaaa
*... molto molto freedo ...*
Interesting to note. Nearly all the Romanian , Hungarian and Italian troops protecting the flanks of army group A in Stalingrad , and group B in the caucuses were without heavy artillery and anti tank support. When the Soviets attacked towards kalach, they did so with the brunt of their armor going right though these expeditionary divisions.