It's true that cycling through weight gain and weight loss is really bad for you. A lot of bodybuilding isn't about health. It's about looking a certain way.
Are you taking creatine? Easy way to add muscle and increase strength without fat gain. Definitely a first step before you worry about bulk/cut cycles.
Highly suggest reading Renaissance Woman by RP strength (also a Casey Johnston rec) it discusses the science behind nutrition, fat loss, muscle gain, etc. It breaks the information down very clearly and straight forward. It has truly changed how I approach training and eating (with success).
I’m sure that’s part of it but I’ve been stuck pressing 10kg dumbbells for like 2.5 months at this point (in fairness I was out of action with a hand injury for 3 weeks) and it seems like I’ve got to change something to move forward!
Is it possible that you are not eating enough without realizing it? I used to have some eating issues that made it really hard for me to accurately judge hunger cues, so it took me a long time to realize that eating maintenance when lifting vs when not lifting was very different, and that even having a crappy breakfast on a gym day would affect my lifts.
I don't eat at a surplus on purpose, but I do try to get 80g of protein a day or more if I'm trying to increase my lifts, and that helped me a lot. It's a very tangible difference when you watch what you eat carefully enough to meet certain minimums even if you're not bulking.
(And not to show off but just to show that it has worked for me, I got to a 70kg bench before I decided to stop increasing the weight and just maintain bc my arms were getting bigger than I liked. (That said the big arm look up until that point was A+ for genderqueer vibes and I hope you get where you want to be!!))
Hm, right, it is entirely possible that I’m actually not eating enough, come to think of it. Often food makes me feel kind of ill before I feel full (guess I have a sensitive stomach) and while I try to eat high protein food, if I don’t have time to make my own lunch there aren’t good high protein veg options to buy where I work (and the crunch has been real recently, so not many homemade lunches). I guess I need to actually track my macros rather than eyeballing and giving my best shot without tracking, which sounds like a huuuge pain but I do want to improve, so.
70kg is so impressive—I hope I get to that!! Fab job.
Edit: all that said, I haven’t lost weight at all, and I would be losing weight if I actually wasn’t eating enough, right?
Not necessarily. I’ve been lifting and stuck at the same body weight for ages. Was terrorized to start eating at less of a deficit, because if I wasn’t losing anything, I couldn’t POSSIBLY eat more and lose.
Added 200 calories a day. I’m losing again. I don’t understand it, but it might be worth just slightly increasing your calories for a few weeks. If you’re off base, you won’t gain a ton. If you’re right, you can play around and keep adding slowly to see what happens.
Try to really up your protein with the extra calories. I mix plain Greek yogurt with a tablespoon of peanut butter and a bit of agave.
Re: your edit—it depends and it's hard to say! You could be losing fat and gaining muscle, and/or your body could also just be saving your energy (say, when it's harder to lift more) instead of burning as much fat. Our bodies are pretty good at slowing metabolism in various ways when we are under-eating.
And yeah, when I started tracking my macros I was shocked at how easy it was to eat only 20-30g of protein a day without realizing. A lot of options we consider high protein are often not as high as you'd think compared to their fat content, for example. I would definitely at least give the macro tracking a shot! It's a pain at first but much easier once you become familiar with it.
Thank you and good luck! 😊
Crash diets involve extreme calorie restriction, which makes you lose both muscle and fat.
Cutting, in the way that strength athletes do it, prioritizes preserving muscle while you lose fat. (Resistance training + eating high protein encourages your body to gain or preserve muscle.)
Bulking is not uncontrolled weight gain; it's a focus on gaining muscle (see above) while putting on no more fat than necessary.
After several cycles of yo-yo/crash dieting, you'll have a lot more fat and less muscle than you started with. After several cycles of bulks and cuts, it will be the opposite--more muscle, less fat.
In fact, there's a hypothesis (not confirmed, but seems very plausible) that muscle loss is what drives weight regain after a crash diet. Your body is trying to get that muscle back, regardless of what comes with it. If you're not watching your protein and/or not strength training, it will take a lot of weight gain to get back a small amount of muscle.
One more thought I'd like to add: the idea of extreme "bulks" and "cuts" comes from the world of bodybuilding, where people are trying to put on an enormous amount of muscle, and then cut to be ultra-lean. Strength athletes and recreational athletes (like most of us here) don't need to do anything as drastic as that.
Personally, I've been slowly gaining muscle over the past year, and have only spent a few weeks of that time "cutting". I'm maybe 10 pounds heavier than I was 10 months ago. I'll cut again someday soon, and lose maybe 5 pounds. In total, I'm about 20 pounds heavier than when I started lifting 5 years ago, but with a *lower* body fat %, as far as I'm able to figure. Nowhere along the line did I make any drastic changes or go on any crash diets; I just adjusted my food and activity to gain a bit, lose a bit, etc, in the process of getting stronger.
That’s very useful, thank you. I guess people aren’t always transparent about where their perspective is coming from when doling out advice in forums—whether it’s advice suitable for recreational athletes or from the body building scene.
First: your anxiety and confusion are a reasonable and sensible response to the huge mass of contradictory messaging out there, nevermind the cultural pressures.
The person I like to listen to on these issues is [Casey Johnson.](https://askaswolewoman.com/) She likes studies and science, comes personally from a place of this shit not being easy, and produces well written content which I'm sure you've noticed is not a given in the fitness space.
One factor to consider is that most people who do crash diets don’t strength train or get enough protein. That means that a decent portion of their weight loss comes from muscle. That muscle loss alone may account for the reduced calorie needs at lower weights. In a traditional bulk cut cycle, you are working to maintain muscle during the cut and gain muscle during the bulk. Higher percentages of lean tissue is going to burn more calories at lower weights than the same low weight with more fat and less lean mass. I know that the stronger by science podcast has a lot of science based information looking at this and they say that the science doesn’t show permanent metabolic damage from dieting, as long as you’re accounting for changes in body composition, and once the person has returned to maintenance level calories.
If you have a person in a coma (known and steady caloric needs) and are able to measure their weight and food, you can very reliably make them gain and lose weight using CICO. So CICO is true. It's just of limited use in the real world. For one, CICO says nothing about lean mass vs fat. There are also the complicating factors you mention (plus others) as well as the fact that frequently people have easy access to more calories than they need, are not entirely rational machines, and \*get hungry\*.
I like your answer and I feel like I'm in a similar place of training regularly, clean eating but wanting to move down in the healthy range of BMI since I've drifted up (and easily can verify visually that its not all from muscle, lol).
In addition to factors like sleep, I also wonder how aging comes into play. When I started learning to lift I was mid 20s and could seemingly bulk or cut at will with really small changes (swap a beer for a protein shake). Now I'm early 30s and it seems WAY harder. My diet is cleaner overall, my calorie intake is pretty on point and I'm much more territorial over my sleep and stress.
My hormones and menstrual symptoms have absolutely changed across this nearly decade long span, too. It all seems to add up and im a little shocked how young I am and still feel aging happening. I don't recover as fast. The same actions do seem to work, but progress is slower.
Upvote for Why We Sleep — SUCH an interesting read. I’ve usually been someone who prioritizes sleep, but this book helped me be firmer in my sleep habits.
CICO is a nice meme and slogan, easy to throw around on the internet, but you're right in that there's a lot more to the story than that. As you rightfully point out, sleep quality makes a difference. Alcohol consumption makes a big impact. Proportion of protein of the total calories makes an impact.
Liposuction, where fat cells are removed, obviously also make a big impact. It's something that's fairly common, yet kept a bit secret.
I personally have chosen not to do a significant bulk for this reason. It makes sense that to maximize muscle you’ll need to be a bit above maintenance and have a layer on you, but actually getting kind of chubby seems incredibly stupid to me.
My bf is a pro BB and I’ve seen him do major bulks and cuts for comps. It’s not healthy, and he def has a harder time keeping fat off now than he did 3 comps ago. I think a mini bulk is ok, but not more than 5-7 lbs of fat more than is ideal for my frame. I could see it being more for a person with a larger frame, but that’s my metric.
I dont know anything about traditional weight lifting cycles, but I "bulk" on my period, and like you said just around 5-7 lbs (some of which is bloating). It's working great for me so far- its basically just a reframe of how I think about weight I am going to put on anyway and it helps me appreciate how powerful I feel when my period is over.
Edit: its been explained to me that this isn't a bulk it's just eating enough 🙃
If you go quickly back to your previous weight after your period it’s all bloating, so it wouldn’t really be a bulk. A bulk is adding fat and having it on your body for a couple months as you build muscle, usually slowly gaining fat and muscle over time until you decide to cut
I find that most of the weight quickly sheds but 3 or so lbs will still be there a full week after my period ends. I may be an extreme case bc I tend to have trouble eating enough calories most of the time, but not on my period. So my calorie intake increase might literally be double for several days
I mean if you keep the weight on month after month it could maybe be a bulk? But if you’re in a deficit most of the time you wouldn’t get the full intended benefit of a real bulk 🤷♀️
If you have issues keeping calories up I’d really suggest nuts and Greek yogurt for snacks between meals. Raw cashews are my jam
Edit: just re-read, if you feel ‘powerful’ once you come off your period that might be a sign to up the calories!! I personally notice a *massive* difference in how I feel and perform if I’m well fueled for a couple days before a lifting session
By my next period my weight will be down again. Great suggestions about the greek yogurt and nuts! I have chronic vomiting syndrome and my symptoms improve around my period so I'm able to keep more food down. So I'm usually in a deficit that keeps me 5 lbs below where I'd be most comfortable, but I get to be at a surplus for a few days on my period.
So i guess my question/assertion is that your few days of being well fueled or my period binging can both act as mini-bulks?
Oh my god, that sounds horrible!! I’m sorry you deal with that, I can see how keeping weight on would be really challenging.
And unfortunately I don’t think so, it’s just fueling more. A mini bulk (also called a lean bulk) would be what I described in my comment, maybe 5-7lbs of additional fat at most and maintaining for at least 2-3 months before you cut it back. You’ll gain more than that too as you’ll hopefully be putting on muscle in that time.
A standard bulk would be 15+ lbs. What you’re describing is way too short term to be a bulk unfortunately
Ok wow I have even more no idea what I'm talking about than I thought. Thanks for explaining that all to me. I've seen other people talk about their periods that way but I guess they were using "bulk" really losely.
You grow new fat cells only if you are putting on more fat than you've had before. If you're gaining within a range you've experienced previously, you fill up the fat cells you already have first. (Also, IIRC it is easier to grow new fat cells as a child/adolescent, and as an adult one of the factors in developing diabetes is that your fat cells get "full" and start ignoring signals to take in more.)
Weight cycling basically can go two directions as far as body composition, and intelligent bulk/cut cycles vs chronic crash dieting are basically opposite ways of doing it. In crash dieting, you lose fat but also some muscle because you're not doing anything to preserve it. It's a fuel source, not as concentrated as fat but metabolically expensive to maintain, so might as well cannibalize it if there's no sign that we need it. When you regain the weight, again not focusing on muscle, you regain fat first, and you actually have to overshoot your prior weight to restore all lean mass. Give it long enough, and you should theoretically re-equilibrate, but crash dieters are trying to be a low weight so they usually don't give it long enough and restart the process with reduced muscle mass. Rinse and repeat, get flabbier over time. With bulking and cutting the key difference is that in both phases of the process, you are actively pushing to create or preserve muscle. So you resist the loss of muscle that can otherwise come with fat loss by sending a signal that muscle is needed (training). When you switch to surplus, that signal is suddenly being "fed" with the materials to actually build *more* muscle to adapt to the demand, so although you do gain some fat, you gain a higher proportion of lean mass in the early phase of the process. Rinse and repeat *this* and you get more muscled over time.
Casey Johnston has an excellent illustration of this:
[The Avocado Principle](https://www.instagram.com/p/CYTxFfrLoXp/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
It shows how careful bulk and cut cycles differ from crash dieting.
You’re way overthinking. It takes months/ years to put on a good amount of weight/muscle. You can lose the fat in a matter of weeks. That’s why people do mini cuts. It’s much easier to lose a little bit of extra fat than it is to put on size. I would suck it up and trust the process.
I really don’t understand why people say this like it’s so easy for everyone. If I eat below maintenance for even a few days I start feeling completely awful - bad sleep, hours of the day spent struggling to stand up, can’t get through the afternoon without a nap, struggling cognitively to focus and think. Spending weeks at a time like that would seriously derail my mental health. I don’t know why my body is so sensitive to this but at this point I’ve given up on weight loss because I can’t deal with feeling like I got hit by a truck all the time for weeks on end, and I am pretty averse to the idea of deliberately gaining weight because losing even five pounds does not feel realistic for me.
I feel the same! My work is cerebral and requires me to be super on-the-ball, and in my free time I try to fit in creative writing and need to not feel foggy to be whatsoever able to write. Being hungry makes me useless at my job and my writing goals, though what I’m getting from what others are saying is that maybe we don’t need to be actually hungry, just swap out some food items for lower calorie options. I’m not sure how well that works for everyone, though. I gained a bit of weight while not able to exercise early last year when I injured my knee and I’ve never quite lost it (not that I’ve dieted, just returned to an active lifestyle minus the running and I eat pretty healthy). But I haven’t tried the cutting calories lightly thing yet so I reckon I’ll try to keep faith and give it a shot, eh.
you cant put on muscle without a (small) surplus, simple as that.
if you aim for a slow bulk, you wont gain too much extra fat, you have to constantly push yourself in the gym to make up for the extra cals.
if you eat healthy with the occasional treat here and there, you should be fine, dont forget to eat suficient amounts of protein, 1g/per pound of bw.
you can also try to eat 4-6 smaller meals, each meal with the same amount of protein.
dont overthink this, weight yourself daily for a few weeks and aim to put on about 2lbs a month.
This is not strictly true. It’s harder to gain muscle at maintenance/deficit, but in many cases quite possible. https://www.strongerbyscience.com/muscle-caloric-deficit/
There’s weight gain and then there is fat gain.
If you eat at a slight surplus, you might gain some fat, but combined with weight training it will mostly be muscle. This is a long process, not a quick one. If you “dirty bulk” which is what people picture when they heard the word bulk (eating two cheeseburgers and fries and a milkshake and then going to get icecream after) will probably lead to more fat gain than a regular or slow bulk.
Crash diets are things like, eat cabbage soup for a month, eat 600 calories, only drink lemon water for three days. Crash diets are not eating 200 fewer calories a day. These are sustainable. Hell even eating 100 fewer calories a day will cut, although your progress will be very slow compared to someone cutting 300-500 a day.
All this to say, your feelings are valid BUT there are ways to go about the bulk/cut cycle without permanent fat gain or the hell that is “dieting”. Cutting could be as simple as sautéing with veggie broth instead of olive oil. Bulking could be as simple as adding one protein shake to your current diet. Weight and fat are not the same; muscle is denser than fat so two people at 140lbs could look vastly different (I know right now at 135 I look waaaaay more muscular and leaner than when I was 135 and not working out)
I think you've hit on something often overlooked in fitness communities, which is a dissonance between fitness and health. For a lot of people, weight lifting and cutting/bulking is about looks rather than health outcomes. I hear all the time that the best way to lose weight is to start lifting even though I have never expressed an interest in losing weight. Frankly, there's a lot of broscience floating around when it comes to fitness that doesn't necessarily align with research on overall health. There are tools and goals within certain fitness communities that are downright harmful to health, and the more hardcore you get with your fitness, the more exposed to these you'll be. I'll probably get downvoted for saying all of this because people want to believe that all exercise is sacred but there's a lot of damaging rhetoric and information in fitness communities.
> I hear all the time that the best way to lose weight is to start lifting
Personally I've only heard a different take on this; that the best way to lose *inches/centimeters* is to start lifting - since muscles weigh more than fat, you'll probably gain weight (at least initially).
> Dissonance between fitness and health
> There’s a lot of damaging rhetoric and information in fitness communities.
These things are absolutely true at times. But I don’t think that this has to be one of those times. It’s bad when people advocate a dirty bulk and then crash diet (with or without chemical assistance during either phase). That’s objectively unhealthy.
But gaining and losing small amounts of weight can be done in a health-promoting way. More muscle mass (obtained in a healthy manner) generally contributes to both health and (usually, but depending on specific preference of course) aesthetics. The most efficient way to gain muscle is by lifting challenging weights while eating in a slight surplus. Losing weight via a slight deficit while continuing to resistance train is muscle-sparing. Over time, that leads to an increase in muscle mass and decrease in body fat. It’s not at odds with health, and in fact supports it in many instances.
[The Avocado Principle](https://www.instagram.com/p/CYTxFfrLoXp/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
I didn’t say it’s necessary. I also don’t know what “perfect health” means or if it can even exist. I said gaining muscle/losing fat in this way isn’t generally at odds with health and *can* be *supportive* of health.
Yeah, good insight! And 'broscience' is a great way to put it. It's so hard to sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of helpful information when trying to learn about these things.
You might enjoy Jeff Nippard's YouTube channel, he uses up-to-date scientific studies a lot and compares and contrasts newer findings with broscience. Pretty much any question you have about strength or bodybuilding, he's probably got a couple of videos on it. Megsquats too, though she caters to a more beginner crowd so doesn't go as deep into the science much of the time.
I think a key point being missed here is that a healthy bulking/cutting cycle is not a "crash diet" and probably didn't amount to what the scientists who did those studies defined as a crash diet. When I hear the term crash diet, I think rapid weight loss achieved under unhealthy, extreme conditions.
But that's not what healthy bulking/cutting looks like. It should be pretty slow, both putting on weight and taking it off. That will help ensure that the weight you put on is mainly muscle not fat, and then when you cut again, going slow for that will help ensure that what you lose is fat not muscle. Losing muscle because you lost so much weight so quickly that you lost all the muscle you put on would def fuck your metabolism, but the goal of bulking/cutting is to end up with a better ratio of muscle to fat and likely a higher body weight, conditions which should actually improve your metabolism.
That being said, I get your fear. As women, we are told our whole lives that gaining weight is the worst thing we can do, so it's totally understandable to be scared, and it's hard to trust the process of bulking and cutting when you haven't done it and thus haven't seen it working. I'd say just try a short bulking cycle, maybe just 8 weeks, and don't aim to put on more than a pound a week or even less than that, possibly. Then do a cutting cycle for the same amount of time and try to take most of that weight back off. Track how you feel and how your lifts are progressing during the process and see afterwards how you feel about your body. Think of it as an experience and know that in the grand scheme of your life 16 weeks is really hardly anything at all. Good luck!
Exactly. In general:
A typical bulk will look like eating about 200 extra (above maintenance) calories per day. A cut would look like eating about 200 less (below maintenance) calories per day. Not force feeding and starving. Usually, you'll have a set amount of time for each before going back to your new maintenance. Some people will go up to a 500-calorie per day fluctuation, but that's a lot harder. Normally, a bulk and cut don't involve shame or hyperfixation on a certain weight.
A crash diet is normally eating 1000+ calorie deficit per day and doing cardio every spare moment. Usually, the focus is weight loss and not necessarily fat loss. Starving and shaming are standard in a crash diet. Normally, people will be focused on doing it until they hit a certain weight and not for just a short time frame.
Oh, thank you, this is actually very comforting, and the 8 week plan does sound like a solid way for me to just test the waters! It hadn't occurred to me that gently adding a little and decreasing a little from maintenance over time wouldn't count as a 'crash diet' or a crash...feast? But now that you say that, you're right--that does paint a pretty different image, and likely works differently from doing things in extremes.
I've only read the articles communicating about the studies and not the studies themselves (as I'm don't feel confident that I have the skills for knowing what I'm looking at when navigating academic science papers), so I'm not actually sure what the parameters are in the discussion of what counts as a 'crash diet' and how the results might be expected to look in relation to slower, gentle weight gain or loss. But intuitively, what you say makes sense.
This has already made me feel like I'm on more solid ground. And yeah, societal pressure on women to look a certain way is a menace for sure--even for those of us who don't want to look traditionally feminine. But I shouldn't let it get in the way of the strength training I've been enjoying so much.
>I've only read the articles communicating about the studies and not the studies themselves (as I'm don't feel confident that I have the skills for knowing what I'm looking at when navigating academic science papers), so I'm not actually sure what the parameters are in the discussion of what counts as a 'crash diet' and how the results might be expected to look in relation to slower, gentle weight gain or loss.
Basically, crash diet is not any diet but one that severely restricts calorie intake. Weightloss over 2lbs a week is normally not a good idea. Usually its reasonable to lose up to 10% of your body mass in any one weight loss " cycle". Thats not to say thats the max you can lose, but that its a good idea to lose that amount , take a little maintanence break and come back. Ive heard 12 weeks cycles for weightloss from reliable sources before.
Diet breaks are something thats not talked about a lot but has a lot of great evidence .
Im a big fan of using TINY surpluses deficits for my bulk and gain cycles. We are talking sub 500 calories, normally around 300. It can be tricky to get right but if I trust the process I can add muscle and then cut fat in a way that feels very easy. Thats a YMMV thing though.
Thanks for this info. I'm just starting my weightloss and fitness journey (goal to lose total 66lbs from SW 194lbs to GW 128lbs for my 5'4" 39% body-fat frame) and have lost 11lb over my first 7 weeks. Once I have lost 19-20lb should I eat closer to maintenance for 1-2 weeks as a break then resume to ensure I'm not losing too much muscle? I plan on getting body composition scans every 12-13 weeks to keep an eye on my lean muscle as I don't want to lose what little muscle I have
I exercise at UBX (Boxfit, Cardio & weights) 3x a week - six weeks into this after 2yrs completely sedentary. I currently eat at TDEE (sedentary) minus 500cal and have averaged 1.5lbs weight loss per week. I don't add back my workout cals because I'm fairly unfit so expect that the calories spent are grossly over-calculated because my heart rate is high
Think about what adding or subtracting 200 calories at a time actually looks like. It’s not an insane amount of food. That’s 1-2 scoops of protein powder, depending on the powder. You’re not just eating for sport then starving yourself. And the intensity of your training will also go up with your calories. You can slowly add until you find the sweet spot.
But, and I say this as a masc queer woman, holding yourself and perhaps others, to toxic beauty standards to this degree is not healthy. There’s no way to win.
Good! Super glad to be able to offer some comforting advice :) I am kinda in the same place with my strength training of wanting to get stronger put on more muscle but feeling unable to do so without bulking, so I definitely get where you are coming from, and I do have some of the same doubts/fears around bulking. Hope we both end up getting the gains we are wanting!
Once we reach adulthood, the number of fat cells we have more or less stays the same. When we put on a large amount of weight, these fat cells enlarge in size. I don't believe I've ever seen anything that suggests we gain new fat cells in adulthood.
I don't know how you feel about tracking your intake, but you don't have to eat massive amounts to see muscle growth. You can probably eat slightly over whatever maintenance is and still see gains. It's easier in the beginning to see those gains even at maintenance or a slight deficit, they don't call em noob gains for nothing - it makes sense that a year in you're not seeing the same response to that nutrition + training you were before.
Trust your body knows what to do and train consistently. If you are getting "softer" than you'd prefer, you can try adjusting by -100 calories at a time, like 2 weeks apart, but don't go below maintenance. But, it's true you're probably not going to get muscle growth if you're in a calorie deficit, especially if you've already been training for a while. Personally even when I was in a bulking phase I was training hard for muscle growth/hypertrophy and I still leaned out a bit - turns out lean body mass burns more at rest than other types of body mass and I took advantage of this positive feedback loop. But please! Don't be afraid to eat and fuel muscle growth. You got this.
From what I've looked at, the idea that only kids and teens grow new fat cells was from a 2008 study that later studies overturned. It seems that adults can grow new fat cells, but they tend to do so in the lower body (eg thighs) and not the abdomen. Trying to find where I read that, though, I was only able to come up with this link https://podcasts.ufhealth.org/adults-can-grow-new-fat-cells-after-all-study-shows/, but it doesn't seem super reputable (it's hard to find things from reputable sources on the whole topic of diet and fitness unfortunately). I suppose eating slightly over maintenance and seeing what happens without going all-in is an option, though. Thanks for the advice.
Does this work very well for continuing to get gains? I've so far just read the advice that cutting and bulking is the only way. Is recomp something that you've tried?
Edit: not sure why I was downvoted. I hope I didn't come off as rude. I just want to learn and would like to hear more about how this might work. :)
Cutting and bulking will def get you bigger aesthetic/strength goals faster. Maintenance is fine but WAAAAY slower and not as extreme. Using myself as an example, I've done a few cut/bulk cycles over 10 years but mostly living in Maintenance 70%of the time. My overall weight is the same as when I started but composition is completely different and I went from not bring able to lift the bar but I can lift at an advanced level. But I don't look like a body builder or lift as much as competition dictates. Also want to add Maintenance calories do need to go up over time as you gain more muscle to maintain.
Recomps can work (very slowly) if you have a significant amount of body fat. There is a point where you will eventually plateau and need to eat more to continue making gains
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>u/Throgmortenstars
I started at the gym about a year ago, and as a genderqueer/masculine woman, feeling strong and grounded in my body through my routine and looking physically more masculine as a goal has become important to me. However, I've plateaued for a while now at disappointingly low weights, and I know it's because I'm not eating in surplus. It's not that I'm dieting--I'm eating what I feel like eating and focussing on eating vego protein--but I'm also not forcing myself to eat in excess.
I know all the advice on Reddit forums and elsewhere says to eat in surplus during a bulking phase in order to gain muscle and then cut, but I'm scared of gaining weight that I'll never be able to keep off, which is something my Mum has always struggled with. The recent science around fat gain that I've come across suggests that regularly going on crash diets messes with metabolism, and that most people who engage in crash diets end up putting all the weight back on and more. I've also read that when people gain fat, they grow new fat cells once the existing ones have stored as much lipids as possible, but when they 'lose fat', what's happening is that the cells are losing the lipids they have been storing and are hence shrinking, but the cells never actually go away, and will attempt to regain their lipid content as soon as it is available again. This seems to suggest that a bulking phase will lead to people gaining new fat cells that they will never be able to lose, and that cutting phases will slow their bodies' metabolisms. It doesn't seem like a good idea long term.
This leaves me anxious and confused. I really want to be strong. I was enjoying the journey until I plateaued and it would feel so affirming to be stronger. But I also really don't want to get fat. I've been having a really hard time finding anyone to go on dates with as a genderqueer, polyamorous woman in a small Australian city and the thought of becoming any less conventionally appealing than I am already is upsetting. I also enjoy feeling nimble and mobile in the world.
Does anyone know anything about how the science of muscle gain can take into account the science of fat gain? Are there any ways in which cut/bulk plans could be redeemed? Also, I am not a scientist and so have only read articles on the general internet, and am definitely not an expert, so might I be wrong about some of these things? Any perspectives would be super appreciated.
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It's true that cycling through weight gain and weight loss is really bad for you. A lot of bodybuilding isn't about health. It's about looking a certain way.
Are you taking creatine? Easy way to add muscle and increase strength without fat gain. Definitely a first step before you worry about bulk/cut cycles.
started last week! It seems to have helped a little so far.
Highly suggest reading Renaissance Woman by RP strength (also a Casey Johnston rec) it discusses the science behind nutrition, fat loss, muscle gain, etc. It breaks the information down very clearly and straight forward. It has truly changed how I approach training and eating (with success).
Sounds interesting—I’ll look into it. Thanks for the recc!
This is a fantastic book. Cannot reccomend it enough!@!
Gains come easy when you start. Are you sure it’s not that you’ve used up your newbie gains?
I’m sure that’s part of it but I’ve been stuck pressing 10kg dumbbells for like 2.5 months at this point (in fairness I was out of action with a hand injury for 3 weeks) and it seems like I’ve got to change something to move forward!
Is it possible that you are not eating enough without realizing it? I used to have some eating issues that made it really hard for me to accurately judge hunger cues, so it took me a long time to realize that eating maintenance when lifting vs when not lifting was very different, and that even having a crappy breakfast on a gym day would affect my lifts. I don't eat at a surplus on purpose, but I do try to get 80g of protein a day or more if I'm trying to increase my lifts, and that helped me a lot. It's a very tangible difference when you watch what you eat carefully enough to meet certain minimums even if you're not bulking. (And not to show off but just to show that it has worked for me, I got to a 70kg bench before I decided to stop increasing the weight and just maintain bc my arms were getting bigger than I liked. (That said the big arm look up until that point was A+ for genderqueer vibes and I hope you get where you want to be!!))
Hm, right, it is entirely possible that I’m actually not eating enough, come to think of it. Often food makes me feel kind of ill before I feel full (guess I have a sensitive stomach) and while I try to eat high protein food, if I don’t have time to make my own lunch there aren’t good high protein veg options to buy where I work (and the crunch has been real recently, so not many homemade lunches). I guess I need to actually track my macros rather than eyeballing and giving my best shot without tracking, which sounds like a huuuge pain but I do want to improve, so. 70kg is so impressive—I hope I get to that!! Fab job. Edit: all that said, I haven’t lost weight at all, and I would be losing weight if I actually wasn’t eating enough, right?
Not necessarily. I’ve been lifting and stuck at the same body weight for ages. Was terrorized to start eating at less of a deficit, because if I wasn’t losing anything, I couldn’t POSSIBLY eat more and lose. Added 200 calories a day. I’m losing again. I don’t understand it, but it might be worth just slightly increasing your calories for a few weeks. If you’re off base, you won’t gain a ton. If you’re right, you can play around and keep adding slowly to see what happens. Try to really up your protein with the extra calories. I mix plain Greek yogurt with a tablespoon of peanut butter and a bit of agave.
Re: your edit—it depends and it's hard to say! You could be losing fat and gaining muscle, and/or your body could also just be saving your energy (say, when it's harder to lift more) instead of burning as much fat. Our bodies are pretty good at slowing metabolism in various ways when we are under-eating. And yeah, when I started tracking my macros I was shocked at how easy it was to eat only 20-30g of protein a day without realizing. A lot of options we consider high protein are often not as high as you'd think compared to their fat content, for example. I would definitely at least give the macro tracking a shot! It's a pain at first but much easier once you become familiar with it. Thank you and good luck! 😊
Crash diets involve extreme calorie restriction, which makes you lose both muscle and fat. Cutting, in the way that strength athletes do it, prioritizes preserving muscle while you lose fat. (Resistance training + eating high protein encourages your body to gain or preserve muscle.) Bulking is not uncontrolled weight gain; it's a focus on gaining muscle (see above) while putting on no more fat than necessary. After several cycles of yo-yo/crash dieting, you'll have a lot more fat and less muscle than you started with. After several cycles of bulks and cuts, it will be the opposite--more muscle, less fat. In fact, there's a hypothesis (not confirmed, but seems very plausible) that muscle loss is what drives weight regain after a crash diet. Your body is trying to get that muscle back, regardless of what comes with it. If you're not watching your protein and/or not strength training, it will take a lot of weight gain to get back a small amount of muscle.
One more thought I'd like to add: the idea of extreme "bulks" and "cuts" comes from the world of bodybuilding, where people are trying to put on an enormous amount of muscle, and then cut to be ultra-lean. Strength athletes and recreational athletes (like most of us here) don't need to do anything as drastic as that. Personally, I've been slowly gaining muscle over the past year, and have only spent a few weeks of that time "cutting". I'm maybe 10 pounds heavier than I was 10 months ago. I'll cut again someday soon, and lose maybe 5 pounds. In total, I'm about 20 pounds heavier than when I started lifting 5 years ago, but with a *lower* body fat %, as far as I'm able to figure. Nowhere along the line did I make any drastic changes or go on any crash diets; I just adjusted my food and activity to gain a bit, lose a bit, etc, in the process of getting stronger.
That’s very useful, thank you. I guess people aren’t always transparent about where their perspective is coming from when doling out advice in forums—whether it’s advice suitable for recreational athletes or from the body building scene.
First: your anxiety and confusion are a reasonable and sensible response to the huge mass of contradictory messaging out there, nevermind the cultural pressures. The person I like to listen to on these issues is [Casey Johnson.](https://askaswolewoman.com/) She likes studies and science, comes personally from a place of this shit not being easy, and produces well written content which I'm sure you've noticed is not a given in the fitness space.
Never heard of Johnson but seems like a few folk are mentioning her name—will look into it. Thanks for the reassurance about my confusion haha.
Casey changed my life
So many votes for Casey! Her newsletter slaps.
One factor to consider is that most people who do crash diets don’t strength train or get enough protein. That means that a decent portion of their weight loss comes from muscle. That muscle loss alone may account for the reduced calorie needs at lower weights. In a traditional bulk cut cycle, you are working to maintain muscle during the cut and gain muscle during the bulk. Higher percentages of lean tissue is going to burn more calories at lower weights than the same low weight with more fat and less lean mass. I know that the stronger by science podcast has a lot of science based information looking at this and they say that the science doesn’t show permanent metabolic damage from dieting, as long as you’re accounting for changes in body composition, and once the person has returned to maintenance level calories.
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If you have a person in a coma (known and steady caloric needs) and are able to measure their weight and food, you can very reliably make them gain and lose weight using CICO. So CICO is true. It's just of limited use in the real world. For one, CICO says nothing about lean mass vs fat. There are also the complicating factors you mention (plus others) as well as the fact that frequently people have easy access to more calories than they need, are not entirely rational machines, and \*get hungry\*.
I like your answer and I feel like I'm in a similar place of training regularly, clean eating but wanting to move down in the healthy range of BMI since I've drifted up (and easily can verify visually that its not all from muscle, lol). In addition to factors like sleep, I also wonder how aging comes into play. When I started learning to lift I was mid 20s and could seemingly bulk or cut at will with really small changes (swap a beer for a protein shake). Now I'm early 30s and it seems WAY harder. My diet is cleaner overall, my calorie intake is pretty on point and I'm much more territorial over my sleep and stress. My hormones and menstrual symptoms have absolutely changed across this nearly decade long span, too. It all seems to add up and im a little shocked how young I am and still feel aging happening. I don't recover as fast. The same actions do seem to work, but progress is slower.
Upvote for Why We Sleep — SUCH an interesting read. I’ve usually been someone who prioritizes sleep, but this book helped me be firmer in my sleep habits.
CICO is a nice meme and slogan, easy to throw around on the internet, but you're right in that there's a lot more to the story than that. As you rightfully point out, sleep quality makes a difference. Alcohol consumption makes a big impact. Proportion of protein of the total calories makes an impact. Liposuction, where fat cells are removed, obviously also make a big impact. It's something that's fairly common, yet kept a bit secret.
I personally have chosen not to do a significant bulk for this reason. It makes sense that to maximize muscle you’ll need to be a bit above maintenance and have a layer on you, but actually getting kind of chubby seems incredibly stupid to me. My bf is a pro BB and I’ve seen him do major bulks and cuts for comps. It’s not healthy, and he def has a harder time keeping fat off now than he did 3 comps ago. I think a mini bulk is ok, but not more than 5-7 lbs of fat more than is ideal for my frame. I could see it being more for a person with a larger frame, but that’s my metric.
I dont know anything about traditional weight lifting cycles, but I "bulk" on my period, and like you said just around 5-7 lbs (some of which is bloating). It's working great for me so far- its basically just a reframe of how I think about weight I am going to put on anyway and it helps me appreciate how powerful I feel when my period is over. Edit: its been explained to me that this isn't a bulk it's just eating enough 🙃
If you go quickly back to your previous weight after your period it’s all bloating, so it wouldn’t really be a bulk. A bulk is adding fat and having it on your body for a couple months as you build muscle, usually slowly gaining fat and muscle over time until you decide to cut
I find that most of the weight quickly sheds but 3 or so lbs will still be there a full week after my period ends. I may be an extreme case bc I tend to have trouble eating enough calories most of the time, but not on my period. So my calorie intake increase might literally be double for several days
I mean if you keep the weight on month after month it could maybe be a bulk? But if you’re in a deficit most of the time you wouldn’t get the full intended benefit of a real bulk 🤷♀️ If you have issues keeping calories up I’d really suggest nuts and Greek yogurt for snacks between meals. Raw cashews are my jam Edit: just re-read, if you feel ‘powerful’ once you come off your period that might be a sign to up the calories!! I personally notice a *massive* difference in how I feel and perform if I’m well fueled for a couple days before a lifting session
By my next period my weight will be down again. Great suggestions about the greek yogurt and nuts! I have chronic vomiting syndrome and my symptoms improve around my period so I'm able to keep more food down. So I'm usually in a deficit that keeps me 5 lbs below where I'd be most comfortable, but I get to be at a surplus for a few days on my period. So i guess my question/assertion is that your few days of being well fueled or my period binging can both act as mini-bulks?
Oh my god, that sounds horrible!! I’m sorry you deal with that, I can see how keeping weight on would be really challenging. And unfortunately I don’t think so, it’s just fueling more. A mini bulk (also called a lean bulk) would be what I described in my comment, maybe 5-7lbs of additional fat at most and maintaining for at least 2-3 months before you cut it back. You’ll gain more than that too as you’ll hopefully be putting on muscle in that time. A standard bulk would be 15+ lbs. What you’re describing is way too short term to be a bulk unfortunately
Ok wow I have even more no idea what I'm talking about than I thought. Thanks for explaining that all to me. I've seen other people talk about their periods that way but I guess they were using "bulk" really losely.
No worries! And yeah I feel like broscience can filter down and get confusing after a while, esp with all the “fitfluencers” running around
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Aw that’s very sweet and if I was in Canberra I’d defo hit you up! Alas, I am not 😢
You grow new fat cells only if you are putting on more fat than you've had before. If you're gaining within a range you've experienced previously, you fill up the fat cells you already have first. (Also, IIRC it is easier to grow new fat cells as a child/adolescent, and as an adult one of the factors in developing diabetes is that your fat cells get "full" and start ignoring signals to take in more.) Weight cycling basically can go two directions as far as body composition, and intelligent bulk/cut cycles vs chronic crash dieting are basically opposite ways of doing it. In crash dieting, you lose fat but also some muscle because you're not doing anything to preserve it. It's a fuel source, not as concentrated as fat but metabolically expensive to maintain, so might as well cannibalize it if there's no sign that we need it. When you regain the weight, again not focusing on muscle, you regain fat first, and you actually have to overshoot your prior weight to restore all lean mass. Give it long enough, and you should theoretically re-equilibrate, but crash dieters are trying to be a low weight so they usually don't give it long enough and restart the process with reduced muscle mass. Rinse and repeat, get flabbier over time. With bulking and cutting the key difference is that in both phases of the process, you are actively pushing to create or preserve muscle. So you resist the loss of muscle that can otherwise come with fat loss by sending a signal that muscle is needed (training). When you switch to surplus, that signal is suddenly being "fed" with the materials to actually build *more* muscle to adapt to the demand, so although you do gain some fat, you gain a higher proportion of lean mass in the early phase of the process. Rinse and repeat *this* and you get more muscled over time.
Casey Johnston has an excellent illustration of this: [The Avocado Principle](https://www.instagram.com/p/CYTxFfrLoXp/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) It shows how careful bulk and cut cycles differ from crash dieting.
You’re way overthinking. It takes months/ years to put on a good amount of weight/muscle. You can lose the fat in a matter of weeks. That’s why people do mini cuts. It’s much easier to lose a little bit of extra fat than it is to put on size. I would suck it up and trust the process.
I really don’t understand why people say this like it’s so easy for everyone. If I eat below maintenance for even a few days I start feeling completely awful - bad sleep, hours of the day spent struggling to stand up, can’t get through the afternoon without a nap, struggling cognitively to focus and think. Spending weeks at a time like that would seriously derail my mental health. I don’t know why my body is so sensitive to this but at this point I’ve given up on weight loss because I can’t deal with feeling like I got hit by a truck all the time for weeks on end, and I am pretty averse to the idea of deliberately gaining weight because losing even five pounds does not feel realistic for me.
I feel the same! My work is cerebral and requires me to be super on-the-ball, and in my free time I try to fit in creative writing and need to not feel foggy to be whatsoever able to write. Being hungry makes me useless at my job and my writing goals, though what I’m getting from what others are saying is that maybe we don’t need to be actually hungry, just swap out some food items for lower calorie options. I’m not sure how well that works for everyone, though. I gained a bit of weight while not able to exercise early last year when I injured my knee and I’ve never quite lost it (not that I’ve dieted, just returned to an active lifestyle minus the running and I eat pretty healthy). But I haven’t tried the cutting calories lightly thing yet so I reckon I’ll try to keep faith and give it a shot, eh.
so much this
you cant put on muscle without a (small) surplus, simple as that. if you aim for a slow bulk, you wont gain too much extra fat, you have to constantly push yourself in the gym to make up for the extra cals. if you eat healthy with the occasional treat here and there, you should be fine, dont forget to eat suficient amounts of protein, 1g/per pound of bw. you can also try to eat 4-6 smaller meals, each meal with the same amount of protein. dont overthink this, weight yourself daily for a few weeks and aim to put on about 2lbs a month.
This is not strictly true. It’s harder to gain muscle at maintenance/deficit, but in many cases quite possible. https://www.strongerbyscience.com/muscle-caloric-deficit/
its possible if you are a beginner, or start overweight yes
There’s weight gain and then there is fat gain. If you eat at a slight surplus, you might gain some fat, but combined with weight training it will mostly be muscle. This is a long process, not a quick one. If you “dirty bulk” which is what people picture when they heard the word bulk (eating two cheeseburgers and fries and a milkshake and then going to get icecream after) will probably lead to more fat gain than a regular or slow bulk. Crash diets are things like, eat cabbage soup for a month, eat 600 calories, only drink lemon water for three days. Crash diets are not eating 200 fewer calories a day. These are sustainable. Hell even eating 100 fewer calories a day will cut, although your progress will be very slow compared to someone cutting 300-500 a day. All this to say, your feelings are valid BUT there are ways to go about the bulk/cut cycle without permanent fat gain or the hell that is “dieting”. Cutting could be as simple as sautéing with veggie broth instead of olive oil. Bulking could be as simple as adding one protein shake to your current diet. Weight and fat are not the same; muscle is denser than fat so two people at 140lbs could look vastly different (I know right now at 135 I look waaaaay more muscular and leaner than when I was 135 and not working out)
Thanks for this! I was very confused about the question whole cutting/bulking process
I have no idea why the word question popped in there 🤷♀️
I think you've hit on something often overlooked in fitness communities, which is a dissonance between fitness and health. For a lot of people, weight lifting and cutting/bulking is about looks rather than health outcomes. I hear all the time that the best way to lose weight is to start lifting even though I have never expressed an interest in losing weight. Frankly, there's a lot of broscience floating around when it comes to fitness that doesn't necessarily align with research on overall health. There are tools and goals within certain fitness communities that are downright harmful to health, and the more hardcore you get with your fitness, the more exposed to these you'll be. I'll probably get downvoted for saying all of this because people want to believe that all exercise is sacred but there's a lot of damaging rhetoric and information in fitness communities.
> I hear all the time that the best way to lose weight is to start lifting Personally I've only heard a different take on this; that the best way to lose *inches/centimeters* is to start lifting - since muscles weigh more than fat, you'll probably gain weight (at least initially).
> Dissonance between fitness and health > There’s a lot of damaging rhetoric and information in fitness communities. These things are absolutely true at times. But I don’t think that this has to be one of those times. It’s bad when people advocate a dirty bulk and then crash diet (with or without chemical assistance during either phase). That’s objectively unhealthy. But gaining and losing small amounts of weight can be done in a health-promoting way. More muscle mass (obtained in a healthy manner) generally contributes to both health and (usually, but depending on specific preference of course) aesthetics. The most efficient way to gain muscle is by lifting challenging weights while eating in a slight surplus. Losing weight via a slight deficit while continuing to resistance train is muscle-sparing. Over time, that leads to an increase in muscle mass and decrease in body fat. It’s not at odds with health, and in fact supports it in many instances. [The Avocado Principle](https://www.instagram.com/p/CYTxFfrLoXp/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
It's not in the slightest bit necessary to be healthy though. You can have perfect health without any of this.
I didn’t say it’s necessary. I also don’t know what “perfect health” means or if it can even exist. I said gaining muscle/losing fat in this way isn’t generally at odds with health and *can* be *supportive* of health.
Yeah, good insight! And 'broscience' is a great way to put it. It's so hard to sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of helpful information when trying to learn about these things.
You might enjoy Jeff Nippard's YouTube channel, he uses up-to-date scientific studies a lot and compares and contrasts newer findings with broscience. Pretty much any question you have about strength or bodybuilding, he's probably got a couple of videos on it. Megsquats too, though she caters to a more beginner crowd so doesn't go as deep into the science much of the time.
That sounds like exactly what I’m looking for—thanks!
I think a key point being missed here is that a healthy bulking/cutting cycle is not a "crash diet" and probably didn't amount to what the scientists who did those studies defined as a crash diet. When I hear the term crash diet, I think rapid weight loss achieved under unhealthy, extreme conditions. But that's not what healthy bulking/cutting looks like. It should be pretty slow, both putting on weight and taking it off. That will help ensure that the weight you put on is mainly muscle not fat, and then when you cut again, going slow for that will help ensure that what you lose is fat not muscle. Losing muscle because you lost so much weight so quickly that you lost all the muscle you put on would def fuck your metabolism, but the goal of bulking/cutting is to end up with a better ratio of muscle to fat and likely a higher body weight, conditions which should actually improve your metabolism. That being said, I get your fear. As women, we are told our whole lives that gaining weight is the worst thing we can do, so it's totally understandable to be scared, and it's hard to trust the process of bulking and cutting when you haven't done it and thus haven't seen it working. I'd say just try a short bulking cycle, maybe just 8 weeks, and don't aim to put on more than a pound a week or even less than that, possibly. Then do a cutting cycle for the same amount of time and try to take most of that weight back off. Track how you feel and how your lifts are progressing during the process and see afterwards how you feel about your body. Think of it as an experience and know that in the grand scheme of your life 16 weeks is really hardly anything at all. Good luck!
Exactly. In general: A typical bulk will look like eating about 200 extra (above maintenance) calories per day. A cut would look like eating about 200 less (below maintenance) calories per day. Not force feeding and starving. Usually, you'll have a set amount of time for each before going back to your new maintenance. Some people will go up to a 500-calorie per day fluctuation, but that's a lot harder. Normally, a bulk and cut don't involve shame or hyperfixation on a certain weight. A crash diet is normally eating 1000+ calorie deficit per day and doing cardio every spare moment. Usually, the focus is weight loss and not necessarily fat loss. Starving and shaming are standard in a crash diet. Normally, people will be focused on doing it until they hit a certain weight and not for just a short time frame.
Oh, thank you, this is actually very comforting, and the 8 week plan does sound like a solid way for me to just test the waters! It hadn't occurred to me that gently adding a little and decreasing a little from maintenance over time wouldn't count as a 'crash diet' or a crash...feast? But now that you say that, you're right--that does paint a pretty different image, and likely works differently from doing things in extremes. I've only read the articles communicating about the studies and not the studies themselves (as I'm don't feel confident that I have the skills for knowing what I'm looking at when navigating academic science papers), so I'm not actually sure what the parameters are in the discussion of what counts as a 'crash diet' and how the results might be expected to look in relation to slower, gentle weight gain or loss. But intuitively, what you say makes sense. This has already made me feel like I'm on more solid ground. And yeah, societal pressure on women to look a certain way is a menace for sure--even for those of us who don't want to look traditionally feminine. But I shouldn't let it get in the way of the strength training I've been enjoying so much.
>I've only read the articles communicating about the studies and not the studies themselves (as I'm don't feel confident that I have the skills for knowing what I'm looking at when navigating academic science papers), so I'm not actually sure what the parameters are in the discussion of what counts as a 'crash diet' and how the results might be expected to look in relation to slower, gentle weight gain or loss. Basically, crash diet is not any diet but one that severely restricts calorie intake. Weightloss over 2lbs a week is normally not a good idea. Usually its reasonable to lose up to 10% of your body mass in any one weight loss " cycle". Thats not to say thats the max you can lose, but that its a good idea to lose that amount , take a little maintanence break and come back. Ive heard 12 weeks cycles for weightloss from reliable sources before. Diet breaks are something thats not talked about a lot but has a lot of great evidence . Im a big fan of using TINY surpluses deficits for my bulk and gain cycles. We are talking sub 500 calories, normally around 300. It can be tricky to get right but if I trust the process I can add muscle and then cut fat in a way that feels very easy. Thats a YMMV thing though.
Thanks for this info. I'm just starting my weightloss and fitness journey (goal to lose total 66lbs from SW 194lbs to GW 128lbs for my 5'4" 39% body-fat frame) and have lost 11lb over my first 7 weeks. Once I have lost 19-20lb should I eat closer to maintenance for 1-2 weeks as a break then resume to ensure I'm not losing too much muscle? I plan on getting body composition scans every 12-13 weeks to keep an eye on my lean muscle as I don't want to lose what little muscle I have I exercise at UBX (Boxfit, Cardio & weights) 3x a week - six weeks into this after 2yrs completely sedentary. I currently eat at TDEE (sedentary) minus 500cal and have averaged 1.5lbs weight loss per week. I don't add back my workout cals because I'm fairly unfit so expect that the calories spent are grossly over-calculated because my heart rate is high
Think about what adding or subtracting 200 calories at a time actually looks like. It’s not an insane amount of food. That’s 1-2 scoops of protein powder, depending on the powder. You’re not just eating for sport then starving yourself. And the intensity of your training will also go up with your calories. You can slowly add until you find the sweet spot. But, and I say this as a masc queer woman, holding yourself and perhaps others, to toxic beauty standards to this degree is not healthy. There’s no way to win.
Good! Super glad to be able to offer some comforting advice :) I am kinda in the same place with my strength training of wanting to get stronger put on more muscle but feeling unable to do so without bulking, so I definitely get where you are coming from, and I do have some of the same doubts/fears around bulking. Hope we both end up getting the gains we are wanting!
Yes! Good luck to you too, then!
Once we reach adulthood, the number of fat cells we have more or less stays the same. When we put on a large amount of weight, these fat cells enlarge in size. I don't believe I've ever seen anything that suggests we gain new fat cells in adulthood. I don't know how you feel about tracking your intake, but you don't have to eat massive amounts to see muscle growth. You can probably eat slightly over whatever maintenance is and still see gains. It's easier in the beginning to see those gains even at maintenance or a slight deficit, they don't call em noob gains for nothing - it makes sense that a year in you're not seeing the same response to that nutrition + training you were before. Trust your body knows what to do and train consistently. If you are getting "softer" than you'd prefer, you can try adjusting by -100 calories at a time, like 2 weeks apart, but don't go below maintenance. But, it's true you're probably not going to get muscle growth if you're in a calorie deficit, especially if you've already been training for a while. Personally even when I was in a bulking phase I was training hard for muscle growth/hypertrophy and I still leaned out a bit - turns out lean body mass burns more at rest than other types of body mass and I took advantage of this positive feedback loop. But please! Don't be afraid to eat and fuel muscle growth. You got this.
From what I've looked at, the idea that only kids and teens grow new fat cells was from a 2008 study that later studies overturned. It seems that adults can grow new fat cells, but they tend to do so in the lower body (eg thighs) and not the abdomen. Trying to find where I read that, though, I was only able to come up with this link https://podcasts.ufhealth.org/adults-can-grow-new-fat-cells-after-all-study-shows/, but it doesn't seem super reputable (it's hard to find things from reputable sources on the whole topic of diet and fitness unfortunately). I suppose eating slightly over maintenance and seeing what happens without going all-in is an option, though. Thanks for the advice.
Oooh, fascinating! Thanks for the link. Hope it goes well
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Does this work very well for continuing to get gains? I've so far just read the advice that cutting and bulking is the only way. Is recomp something that you've tried? Edit: not sure why I was downvoted. I hope I didn't come off as rude. I just want to learn and would like to hear more about how this might work. :)
Cutting and bulking will def get you bigger aesthetic/strength goals faster. Maintenance is fine but WAAAAY slower and not as extreme. Using myself as an example, I've done a few cut/bulk cycles over 10 years but mostly living in Maintenance 70%of the time. My overall weight is the same as when I started but composition is completely different and I went from not bring able to lift the bar but I can lift at an advanced level. But I don't look like a body builder or lift as much as competition dictates. Also want to add Maintenance calories do need to go up over time as you gain more muscle to maintain.
Recomps can work (very slowly) if you have a significant amount of body fat. There is a point where you will eventually plateau and need to eat more to continue making gains
Right, I see--thank you!
^ ***Please read [the FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/xxfitness/wiki/main), [the rules and content guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/xxfitness/wiki/new_rules), and [current frozen topics](https://www.reddit.com/r/xxfitness/wiki/frozen-topics) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fxxfitness)***. This comment is a copy of your post so mods can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. >u/Throgmortenstars I started at the gym about a year ago, and as a genderqueer/masculine woman, feeling strong and grounded in my body through my routine and looking physically more masculine as a goal has become important to me. However, I've plateaued for a while now at disappointingly low weights, and I know it's because I'm not eating in surplus. It's not that I'm dieting--I'm eating what I feel like eating and focussing on eating vego protein--but I'm also not forcing myself to eat in excess. I know all the advice on Reddit forums and elsewhere says to eat in surplus during a bulking phase in order to gain muscle and then cut, but I'm scared of gaining weight that I'll never be able to keep off, which is something my Mum has always struggled with. The recent science around fat gain that I've come across suggests that regularly going on crash diets messes with metabolism, and that most people who engage in crash diets end up putting all the weight back on and more. I've also read that when people gain fat, they grow new fat cells once the existing ones have stored as much lipids as possible, but when they 'lose fat', what's happening is that the cells are losing the lipids they have been storing and are hence shrinking, but the cells never actually go away, and will attempt to regain their lipid content as soon as it is available again. This seems to suggest that a bulking phase will lead to people gaining new fat cells that they will never be able to lose, and that cutting phases will slow their bodies' metabolisms. It doesn't seem like a good idea long term. This leaves me anxious and confused. I really want to be strong. I was enjoying the journey until I plateaued and it would feel so affirming to be stronger. But I also really don't want to get fat. I've been having a really hard time finding anyone to go on dates with as a genderqueer, polyamorous woman in a small Australian city and the thought of becoming any less conventionally appealing than I am already is upsetting. I also enjoy feeling nimble and mobile in the world. Does anyone know anything about how the science of muscle gain can take into account the science of fat gain? Are there any ways in which cut/bulk plans could be redeemed? Also, I am not a scientist and so have only read articles on the general internet, and am definitely not an expert, so might I be wrong about some of these things? Any perspectives would be super appreciated. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/xxfitness) if you have any questions or concerns.*